Joseph Smith's Conspiracy

[_Fortigurn]

The thing that really gets to me about Joseph and polygamy is that none of this happens, if the women refuse. The women let it happen; not only did they let it happen, the women participated. They allowed ourselves to be bamboozled, to be bought cheap, to be treated as things. And their husbands and fathers played along, drunk on power, greedy for the glory Joseph promised. Without the greed of the mark, no con can work. So our ancestors are the ones who bear the burden, the stigma, the shame of polygamy, as much as Joseph.

In for a penny, in for a pound. It's like the 419 scam. The psychology of religious movements is often identical.

[_Inconceivable]

The thing that really gets to me about Joseph and polygamy is that none of this happens, if the women refuse. The women let it happen; not only did they let it happen, the women participated. They allowed ourselves to be bamboozled, to be bought cheap, to be treated as things..

Harmony,

I think we call them groupies today.

And their husbands and fathers played along, drunk on power, greedy for the glory Joseph promised. Without the greed of the mark, no con can work. So our ancestors are the ones who bear the burden, the stigma, the shame of polygamy, as much as Joseph.

Amazing how some call good evil and evil good.

How could someone see this any other way? My daughter, my wife, my sister, my mother. How did this pirate last as long as he did? It boggles the mind that for some enlightened ones hindsight is not 20/20 -

[_marg]

The thing that really gets to me about Joseph and polygamy is that none of this happens, if the women refuse. The women let it happen; not only did they let it happen, the women participated. They allowed ourselves to be bamboozled, to be bought cheap, to be treated as things. And their husbands and fathers played along, drunk on power, greedy for the glory Joseph promised. Without the greed of the mark, no con can work. So our ancestors are the ones who bear the burden, the stigma, the shame of polygamy, as much as Joseph.

I don't think one can say that the women were greedy or even the men. Joseph Smith was a con artist but he was also an authority figure, so that conbination enabled him to sell a convincing story for polygyny to an already "conditioned to be obedient" to him audience. He made polygyny sound like a virtuous thing and anyone living in that culture and hearing of others accepting it, would have had their defences down.

The milgram experience http://www.answers.com/topic/milgram-experiment which I'm sure you're familiar with comes to mind as relevant to how Smith could sell polygyny to people who would otherwise not accept it. It is evidence that people in certain situations/environment will not question authority, even when it goes against their moral values. That phenomenon of human nature was working in J. Smith's favor.

[_harmony]

The thing that really gets to me about Joseph and polygamy is that none of this happens, if the women refuse. The women let it happen; not only did they let it happen, the women participated. They allowed ourselves to be bamboozled, to be bought cheap, to be treated as things. And their husbands and fathers played along, drunk on power, greedy for the glory Joseph promised. Without the greed of the mark, no con can work. So our ancestors are the ones who bear the burden, the stigma, the shame of polygamy, as much as Joseph.

I don't think one can say that the women were greedy or even the men. Joseph Smith was a con artist but he was also an authority figure, so that conbination enabled him to sell a convincing story for polygyny to an already "conditioned to be obedient" to him audience. He made polygyny sound like a virtuous thing and anyone living in that culture and hearing of others accepting it, would have had their defences down.

The milgram experience http://www.answers.com/topic/milgram-experiment which I'm sure you're familiar with comes to mind as relevant to how Smith could sell polygyny to people who would otherwise not accept it. It is evidence that people in certain situations/environment will not question authority, even when it goes against their moral values. That phenomenon of human nature was working in J. Smith's favor.

None of which excuses the participants at all. No one threatened them that an angel with a sword would kill them if they didn't participate. All they had was a promise of eternal glory and the opportunity to be in a secret and thus have some secret power, at the time.

Personally, I think if polygamy was some sort of test of their faith, they all failed it, Joseph and everyone who participated included. Only those who refused passed the test.

[_Sethbag]

Harmony, maybe the angel didn't threaten them personally, but if Joseph told them that an angel told him that he would be killed if the girl didn't accept him (and she believed it), then she would feel like she would be responsible for Joseph's death at the hands of the angel if she didn't accept him. Already believing that he was a prophet, that would be a heavy burden of responsibility indeed. Of course, this is all despicable religious and emotional manipulation.

[Guest]

[quote="harmonyPersonally, I think if polygamy was some sort of test of their faith, they all failed it, Joseph and everyone who participated included. Only those who refused passed the test.[/quote]

Good point.

I am a father/husband of a TBM family with more than 4 children and a son returning from a mission next month. I was a TBM when he left.

Here is the paradox:

If I am passing the test by rejecting the evil (and in my opinion, Joseph Smith was or became a very evil man), and yet it destroys my family relationship. What deity would create such a test that would produce such damning and chaotic consequences when the seemingly righteous choice is made?

Additionally:

I would be unable to pass a temple recommend interview because I won't support, encourage or sympathise with groups or individuals whose teachings are not in harmony with the church - like that of it's founder, Joseph Smith.

The additional irony is that a man with his character living the way he did would not qualify for baptism, let alone hold a position as elders quorem president, bishop, stake president, apostle or prophet.

Given several months there is little doubt he would have become a convicted felon.

[_Analytics]

I have more sympathy for the women than for the men. There is a certain level of hero worship in the church. How would you feel as a committed, believing member, and the prophet of God himself calls you into a secret meeting and tells you how special you are and how he wants to have such an intimate relationship with you? A few people might see it for what it is, but I bet it would be an incredible ego boost for others. Most people are looking for reasons to feel special—to feel like insiders.

It’s entirely possible that Joseph Smith himself looked at certain women, felt a burning in his bosom and loins, and in his inimitable way interpreted the feelings as a commandment from the Lord to enter into these secret combinations. I doubt it was just about sex—it was also about the thrill of being an insider—like the Skulls and Crossbones. Or like going to club 51, getting past the throng of outcasts into the club, getting passed the velvet rope at the back into the VIP lounge, and then slipping into the VVIP secret room behind that. Man, I bet it would be a thrill to be on the inside of such a secret society.

[_marg]

None of which excuses the participants at all. No one threatened them that an angel with a sword would kill them if they didn't participate. All they had was a promise of eternal glory and the opportunity to be in a secret and thus have some secret power, at the time.

Personally, I think if polygamy was some sort of test of their faith, they all failed it, Joseph and everyone who participated included. Only those who refused passed the test.

I pride myself on being an independent thinker but I'm aware that I've learned this attitude from my environment particularly my parents. Having said that I think in a different environment in which I was encouraged to not question authority. In which I firmly believed in prophets, in God, in the Bible, in Jesus, an afterlife, the 3 glories of heaven... I would in all likihood have gone along with polygamy. If the goal is to increase membership and birth rates for the Mormon church..polygamy works. Eventually as many women are wedded to one man there will be pressure for to seek women outside of the Mormon church. It is noted though I don't have references of where I've read this but women are more easily talked into joining religious groups/cults.

The women involved weren't behaving immorally, they were the victims. They weren't hurting anyone else. Perhaps children suffered but then again it could be argued that there were more women to help each other out in raising them. The men might suffer to some extent, in the demands that women might make of them...though I suspect they'd suffer much less that the women. While the Mormon society would benefit with increased membership numbers, the society outside would suffer with less women, lower births.

J. Smith presented it as a virtuous thing to do, something god wanted for his chosen people. It's not a far step from accepting as true, a Mormon God, the celestial kingdoms, J. Smith as prophet, the BoMas sacred, Jesus a son of God, etc. to accepting polygamy is the right thing to do if it's viewed as being virtuous.

The only people who failed are those who knew better than it was a proposal from a God.

If you assume people should have known better and we carry that reasoning forward then a lot of Mormons are failing who should know better.

[_harmony]

[

What makes you think it was God that created the test? I'm leaning towards the idea that Joseph is responsible for polygamy, all by his little ol' lonesome. The only way I can make sense of Sec 132, polygamy, and whole "bargain the way into heaven" thing is if I take off the God-breathed filter and realize that it was man-made, not God-breathed. Then it makes sense.

I sent 4 sons on missions, and I consider myself to still be a believer. An unorthodox one, it's true, but a believer, nonetheless. But I don't believe in the Church of Joseph Smith. I see little value in elevating a man above the station he earned.

[_harmony]

I pride myself on being an independent thinker but I'm aware that I've learned this attitude from my environment particularly my parents. Having said that I think in a different environment in which I was encouraged to not question authority.

None of the women involved were raised in an environment that accepted plural marriage or anything similiar thereto. All of these women were converts, women who were taught to be monogamous and true to their marriage vows. Half of Joseph's wives were girls, teenagers, vulnerable, yet even those with fathers and brothers to protect them were placed in harms way. The girls bear no shame; their relatives who agreed to this practice are the ones who will have to answer for their lack of protection.

In which I firmly believed in prophets, in God, in the Bible, in Jesus, an afterlife, the 3 glories of heaven... I would in all likihood have gone along with polygamy.

Not in 1831, not in 1835, not in 1844. Polygamy was hidden, secret, lied about, whispered about, gossiped about. If it was acceptable, there is no reason for the secrecy. The good people of the church (as in all those not in on the secret kept hidden from everyone else) suffered and were persecuted because of the not-so-secret wickedness of their leader.

If the goal is to increase membership and birth rates for the Mormon church..polygamy works.

Actually, no it doesn't. But even if it did, Joseph has no claimed progeny from any wife except Emma, so increasing membership and birth rates could not have been the reason he did it, or hid it.

Eventually as many women are wedded to one man there will be pressure for to seek women outside of the Mormon church.

What actually happened is what is happening in FLDS today: they disenfranchised their young men, as all the young women were taken by the old men. Young men had no opportunity to marry. Without the interference from the US government, the LDS church collapses in on itself.

The women involved weren't behaving immorally, they were the victims.

I agree they were victims, but without their cooperation, it doesn't happen. They are as guilty as the men, in that regard. And as greedy for a leg up on the social ladder.

They weren't hurting anyone else.

Tell that to the FLDS families. Tell that to the displaced boys.

J. Smith presented it as a virtuous thing to do, something god wanted for his chosen people. It's not a far step from accepting as true, a Mormon God, the celestial kingdoms, J. Smith as prophet, the BoMas sacred, Jesus a son of God, etc. to accepting polygamy is the right thing to do if it's viewed as being virtuous.

Joseph lied. What else is new?

The only people who failed are those who knew better than it was a proposal from a God.

The ones who failed were those who ignored their inner promptings to avoid it at all costs. And the ones who should have protected the young, the innocent, and the weak, and didn't.

If you assume people should have known better and we carry that reasoning forward then a lot of Mormons are failing who should know better.

It's called accepting responsibility for one's actions. It's called letting the chips fall where they may.