On Licked Cupcakes *PG-13

[_Fortigurn]

I have known several exmormon women who inadvertently married gay men. I know a still active Mormon man who inadvertently married a lesbian. These marriages ended in divorce, after children had already been brought into a hopeless marriage. But far overwhelming those numbers are LDS who are in practically sexless marriages, due to the fact that one of the partners (usually the female) actually has zero sexual desire. None of these people had a clue beforehand what they were getting into, because of the fact that the LDS church normalizes complete lack of sexual contact of any kind prior to marriage. There was no way to differentiate between lack of desire and the determination to control desire. Sexual compatibility, while not the sole factor in a successful relationship, is an extremely important factor. And no, it's not possible for sexual compatibility to be forced, no matter how sincere and determined the individuals are. This is one of the myths perpetuated within Mormonism, in my opinion. "Any two people who love the Lord...etc" It's just not true. Not any two people can make a good, truly fulfilling marriage. Sure, they may be able to make a social contract and raise children, but that is not the same thing as a fulfilling, truly happy marriage.

The problem here is not 'sexual incompatibility', the problem is a conditioning which has provided unrealistic expectations regarding sexual relationships. Getting these poor 'don't have a clue' Mormons to get in the sack and give it a go before being married wouldn't have solved anything - they would have just experienced misery a little earlier. The problem with telling them to just go at it before being married is that it doesn't actually address the real issue.

Perhaps that kind of God really exists - the kind who wants young people to be told they are damaged goods if they have premarital sex, the kind who thinks sexual relationships between consenting, loving adults is a horrific sin.

I'm not sure how helpful parody is at this point.

I have no idea if that kind of God exists. But I do know that even if he/she/it does exist, I could never worship he/she/it.

Some people could never worship a god who doesn't want us to kill each other. Takes all kinds.

[_beastie]

The problem here is not 'sexual incompatibility', the problem is a conditioning which has provided unrealistic expectations regarding sexual relationships. Getting these poor 'don't have a clue' Mormons to get in the sack and give it a go before being married wouldn't have solved anything - they would have just experienced misery a little earlier. The problem with telling them to just go at it before being married is that it doesn't actually address the real issue.

I'm not telling Mormons to get in the sack before marriage. I shared my own views about premarital sex, which have nothing to do with Mormonism. I am quite certain Mormonism is not going to begin condoning premarital sex when they can't even admit that masturbation is a normal, non-sinful activity.

Quote:
Perhaps that kind of God really exists - the kind who wants young people to be told they are damaged goods if they have premarital sex, the kind who thinks sexual relationships between consenting, loving adults is a horrific sin.



I'm not sure how helpful parody is at this point

It's not parody, it's an LDS teaching that sexual sin is next to murder.

Quote:
I have no idea if that kind of God exists. But I do know that even if he/she/it does exist, I could never worship he/she/it.



Some people could never worship a god who doesn't want us to kill each other. Takes all kinds.

Yeah, I could never worship a god who tells his followers to kill other people. Why in the world would anyone worship such a being? Why would anyone worship a being who declares that a sexual relationship between two loving, consenting adults is really worse than all the other horrific acts human beings do to each other, short of murder? I can understand being afraid of such a being if it threatened you with some horrific fate if you didn't believe in it, and I guess I can understand a sort of "worship" of it if it demanded it, but certainly I can't imagine any love and respect based worship. Why would a god who creates human beings with an internal moral compass be angry at us for refusing to ignore that same internal moral compass?

[_Fortigurn]

The problem here is not 'sexual incompatibility', the problem is a conditioning which has provided unrealistic expectations regarding sexual relationships. Getting these poor 'don't have a clue' Mormons to get in the sack and give it a go before being married wouldn't have solved anything - they would have just experienced misery a little earlier. The problem with telling them to just go at it before being married is that it doesn't actually address the real issue.

I'm not telling Mormons to get in the sack before marriage. I shared my own views about premarital sex, which have nothing to do with Mormonism. I am quite certain Mormonism is not going to begin condoning premarital sex when they can't even admit that masturbation is a normal, non-sinful activity.

Thanks for the clarification. Sorry, I thought you were advising that they need to have sex in order to assess sexual compatibility prior to marriage.

It's not parody, it's an LDS teaching that sexual sin is next to murder.

If that's true, I don't think it's the real issue. The real issue is lack of forgiveness and the whole 'you're tainted and indelibly stained' mindset which goes along with it.

Yeah, I could never worship a god who tells his followers to kill other people. Why in the world would anyone worship such a being?

I can find plenty of room for such a god, depending on context.

Why would anyone worship a being who declares that a sexual relationship between two loving, consenting adults is really worse than all the other horrific acts human beings do to each other, short of murder?

I actually don't know any religion which teaches that.

I can understand being afraid of such a being if it threatened you with some horrific fate if you didn't believe in it...

I can't. Sounds dreadful to me.

...and I guess I can understand a sort of "worship" of it if it demanded it I can't , but certainly I can't imagine any love and respect based worship. Why would a god who creates human beings with an internal moral compass be angry at us for refusing to ignore that same internal moral compass?

I have no idea. But I don't believe for a moment that we have a biologically encoded internal moral compass. Our moral compass is aligned by our environment, not by anything hardcoded in us. So that issue doesn't arise.

[_beastie]

Alma 39

1 And now, my son, I have somewhat more to say unto thee than what I said unto thy brother; for behold, have ye not observed the steadiness of thy brother, his faithfulness, and his diligence in keeping the commandments of God? Behold, has he not set a good example for thee?
2 For thou didst not give so much heed unto my words as did thy brother, among the people of the Zoramites. Now this is what I have against thee; thou didst go on unto boasting in thy strength and thy wisdom.
3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.
4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.
5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

This page provides citations from talks from LDS leaders asserting that sexual sin is only second to murder.

http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_sex_war.htm

including this:

"God has placed foremost in the category of serious crimes against which we are warned... first, murder, and second only to that, sexual impurity. The Church counsels you to be modest in your dress and manner and to forbid the evil thoughts that would prompt your lips to obscenity and your conduct to be base and unseemly. One day [we] will have to meet our Maker and as Moroni put it - and this is pretty strong language - he said, 'Do you think that you could be happy in the presence of the Holy One of Israel with a sense of guilt of your own uncleanness?' He said, 'You would be happier to live with the damned souls in hell than in the presence of the Holy One of Israel with your uncleanness and your filthiness still upon you.'"

-Prophet Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p. 213-14, 2002-2003 lesson manual for all Church-wide Priesthood and Relief Society classes

[_twinkie]

Well, I can testify that I was NOT passed around and licked. Although I think "Ding Dongs" and "Hohos" would have been more appropriate examples.

[_Fortigurn]

Alma 39

1 And now, my son, I have somewhat more to say unto thee than what I said unto thy brother; for behold, have ye not observed the steadiness of thy brother, his faithfulness, and his diligence in keeping the commandments of God? Behold, has he not set a good example for thee?
2 For thou didst not give so much heed unto my words as did thy brother, among the people of the Zoramites. Now this is what I have against thee; thou didst go on unto boasting in thy strength and thy wisdom.
3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.
4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.
5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

This page provides citations from talks from LDS leaders asserting that sexual sin is only second to murder.

http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_sex_war.htm

including this:

"God has placed foremost in the category of serious crimes against which we are warned... first, murder, and second only to that, sexual impurity. The Church counsels you to be modest in your dress and manner and to forbid the evil thoughts that would prompt your lips to obscenity and your conduct to be base and unseemly. One day [we] will have to meet our Maker and as Moroni put it - and this is pretty strong language - he said, 'Do you think that you could be happy in the presence of the Holy One of Israel with a sense of guilt of your own uncleanness?' He said, 'You would be happier to live with the damned souls in hell than in the presence of the Holy One of Israel with your uncleanness and your filthiness still upon you.'"

-Prophet Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p. 213-14, 2002-2003 lesson manual for all Church-wide Priesthood and Relief Society classes

I thought we were talking about 'a sexual relationship between two loving, consenting adults' being 'really worse than all the other horrific acts human beings do to each other, short of murder'. The quote from Alma talks about a harlot, which is certainly not talking about 'a sexual relationship between two loving, consenting adults'. It's talking about a man and a woman who use each other as tools for personal sexual gratification (on the part of the man), and income (on the part of the woman).

Likewise, the other quote didn't talk about 'a sexual relationship between two loving, consenting adults', it spoke (rather vaguely), of 'sexual impurity'.

[_beastie]

Fort,

Did you read all the citations on the link I provided, like this one?

"We desire with holy zeal to emphasize the enormity of sexual sins. We hold that sexual sin is second only to the shedding of innocent blood in the category of personal crimes. Though often regarded as insignificant by those not knowing the will of God, they are, in his eyes an abomination, and if we are to remain his favored people they must be shunned as the gates of hell. The evil results of these sins are so patent in vice, crime, misery and disease that it would appear that all, young and old, must perceive and sense them. They are destroying the world. If we are to be preserved we must abhor them, shun them, not practice the least of them, for they weaken and enervate, they kill man spiritually, they make him unfit for the company of the righteous and the presence of God.

- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 18: Chastity and Purity, From the Life of Joseph F. Smith Lesson Manual, page 155, Published and taught during 2000-2001 Church-wide Priesthood and Relief Society classes

Premarital sex, even between two loving, consenting adults, is still "sexual sin" in the LDS church.

[_Fortigurn]

Fort,

Did you read all the citations on the link I provided, like this one?

Yes, but I don't see them saying that 'sex between two loving, consenting adults' is 'sexual sin'.

Premarital sex, even between two loving, consenting adults, is still "sexual sin" in the LDS church.

The word 'premarital' was the previously missing term. That premarital sex (even between two loving, consenting adults), is a sexual sin, is a pretty mainstream view among Christians, and I don't have an issue with it.

[_beastie]

You don't have a problem with stating premarital sex between two consenting, loving adults is a sin next only to murder?

[_Fortigurn]

You don't have a problem with stating premarital sex between two consenting, loving adults is a sin next only to murder?

No, that's not what I said. I attempted to avoid that conclusion being drawn by specifically stating this:

That premarital sex (even between two loving, consenting adults), is a sexual sin, is a pretty mainstream view among Christians, and I don't have an issue with it.

Added emphasis. I think it's pretty clear that most humans on this planet are more or less incapable of managing healthy sexual relationships without clear guidance, and even less capable of self control in sexual relationships. People basically act like animals in this area, and need to be taught discipline.

I believe that our modern society does far more harm to people with its oppressive conditioning on sexual relationships than a lot of Christian groups.