On Licked Cupcakes *PG-13

[_Jason Bourne]

But, for those with their minds still somewhat open, let me just relate a personal experience which I believe bears my point out. When I first attended college, I became acquainted with a fellow who had several years earlier made a poor sexual choice, and unfortunately ended up contracting a case of syphillus that was so profound that it left him crippled and bound for life to his wheel chair. And, while he had fervently repented for his sins, and had, I believe received full forgivensss, that forgiveness did not enable him to walk, nor did it make him as attractive to the opposite sex as before his poor sexual choice. In fact, I don't know of a single woman on campus who was interested in dating him, let alone marry him.

About the same time, I knew a teenage girl who got pregnant after making a poor sexual choice. She also fervently repented, and I believe received full forgiveness. But, that forgiveness didn't change the fact that she was pregnant. It didn't change the fact that the pregnancy drastically complicated her personal life, including her ability to attract a mate willing to shoulder the responisibility growing out of the pregnancy, regardless of how she chose to deal with the pregnancy (whether to abort, or adopt out, or keep the baby).

I could go on, but I think that should suffice.

And for your few anecsotes there are dozens of others that illustrate the hopelessness felt by those who sexuallly trangressed and are made to feel that they are forever tainted. The cup cake analogy and those like it are bad. They dimiss the atonement. Elder Holland has said they do and ought not the be used. There are better ways to teach. The beuty of sexuality, the special gift it can be when one waits, the bonding that comes, an honest discussion about STDs and pregnancy as consequences of sex out of marriage, the reasons why God wants us to wait. These frank discussions should also be coupled with a discussion of repentance and equal time should be given to the fact that one can be wholly restored if one had sinned and repented, that the are desirable and should be desired as well.

Face it Wade. These antuiquited reationary fear moingering manipulative shaming ways fo teaching need to go. Away. Forever.

You are simply wrong to defend them and look foolish in doing so.

[_Yoda]

Hi Wade! :)

I have a problem with this statement:

and because of the nature of things (women having the only visible symbol of virginity and also the ones who may get pregnant, etc.), women will tend to experience more of those unfavorable consequences than men, and it would behoove them to take more care to avoid the unfavorable consequences.

Yes, women become pregnant, but don't the men who impregnante them also become fathers? Wouldn't it "behoove" us, as leaders, to teach young men that simply because they aren't carrying a child in their body for nine months, they are still responsible for the fatherhood of that child?

This is why I think that a trip to a shelter for abandoned children would hold a much stronger impact for both sexes than a cupcake object lesson.

I think that the frank discussion that could occur after such an experience would do much more to enlighten the youth of today, and bring the message of chastity and making proper choices home.

[_Runtu]

And for your few anecsotes there are dozens of others that illustrate the hopelessness felt by those who sexuallly trangressed and are made to feel that they are forever tainted. The cup cake analogy and those like it are bad. They dimiss the atonement. Elder Holland has said they do and ought not the be used. There are better ways to teach. The beuty of sexuality, the special gift it can be when one waits, the bonding that comes, an honest discussion about STDs and pregnancy as consequences of sex out of marriage, the reasons why God wants us to wait. These frank discussions should also be coupled with a discussion of repentance and equal time should be given to the fact that one can be wholly restored if one had sinned and repented, that the are desirable and should be desired as well.

Face it Wade. These antuiquited reationary fear moingering manipulative shaming ways fo teaching need to go. Away. Forever.

You are simply wrong to defend them and look foolish in doing so.

I have two cousins who were raped. One was raped by her homecoming date when she was sixteen and became pregnant with twins, whom she gave up for adoption. She is active in the church today, but went through a long period during which she felt cheap and dirty for not having fought her rapist hard enough. At BYU, she married a man who immediately began beating her, but she suffered in silence until he beat her so badly that she ended up in the ER. She told my mother that she felt like she was lucky to have her husband because (does this sound familiar?) no one else would want her.

My other cousin was raped at age 12 by a neighbor in Provo. Instead of going to the police, she went to her bishop, who told her that she shouldn't have put herself in that position. The boy involved was not questioned by the bishop or anyone else. By age 20, my cousin had tried to kill herself half a dozen times and repeatedly said she felt worthless and damaged.

That's why I don't believe the "licked cupcake" analogy is benign. I'd prefer being straight with my kids. I'd rather have them talk to your disabled friend about the consequences of promiscuity than tell them that they will always be "damaged goods" if they have sex even once.

[_Jason Bourne]

I also know a couple (non Mormon) who had lived together before marriage. They had both had multiple partners. The wedding did not carry with it the same spirit as the ones I attend (Mormon and non Mormon) of those who have saved themselves for eachother.

At weddings that you feel this wonderfuyl spirit how DO YOU know who is and is not a virgin. You may be at a temple wedding where neiher coupl;e is a virgin but both having repented are no able to attend the temple.

If you know your partner can control his or her passions and wait until marriage, it's a good sign they will be able to remain faithful to you and the covenants made to God during the marriage as well.

I do not agree at all. Young people may have trouble bridlign their passions but end up changing and entering into a very mice long term mongomous relationship.

Sadly, too many of the couples I know that engaged in pre marital sex or lived together ended up divorced from adultery or lack of commitment.

I also know a man who had engaged in pre marital sex and married a virgin. It became a burden for him because he felt so unworthy of her. She didn't feel that way about him and never had an issue with it. She loved the man he had become, but he was always haunted by the sin.

To bad. The fellow should have been able to work through it if he had repented. Allegedly the atonement fo Christ makes us new.

[_Yoda]

My other cousin was raped at age 12 by a neighbor in Provo. Instead of going to the police, she went to her bishop, who told her that she shouldn't have put herself in that position. The boy involved was not questioned by the bishop or anyone else. By age 20, my cousin had tried to kill herself half a dozen times and repeatedly said she felt worthless and damaged.

I'm sorry, but these stories always make me so angry. I know that not all bishops are like this, thank God. Most are decent and would do the right thing. This Bishop should have immediately helped this girl get to the police. He has a lot to answer for.

How is your cousin doing now?

[_Runtu]

My other cousin was raped at age 12 by a neighbor in Provo. Instead of going to the police, she went to her bishop, who told her that she shouldn't have put herself in that position. The boy involved was not questioned by the bishop or anyone else. By age 20, my cousin had tried to kill herself half a dozen times and repeatedly said she felt worthless and damaged.

I'm sorry, but these stories always make me so angry. I know that not all bishops are like this, thank God. Most are decent and would do the right thing. This Bishop should have immediately helped this girl get to the police. He has a lot to answer for.

How is your cousin doing now?

She's been married 3 times, and husband #3 is, to put it mildly, a horrible "father" to her boys from the previous two marriages. The first husband was a guy who beat her up; the second was a guy who claimed to work at the mental health center in Provo (but who was actually a regular patient); the third is a TBM.

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't believe pre marital sex is necessary to see if you are sexually compatible. It's just my opinion, but if the marriage is good and there is love, commitment, and trust, sex will naturally be enjoyable. I am sure there may be exceptions, but many sexual problems can be overcome with time, communication, and or therapy.

I've heard too many stories about basically sexless LDS marriages to agree with you. It is difficult to differentiate between someone who is simply restraining one's passion and someone who has no passion when dating under these circumstances.

Does anyone else agree with Beastie that one should avoid the risk of sexual incompatibility by getting sexual experienced prior to marriage and by sexaully trying out pontentional spouses prior to marriage?

Is that risk higher than other risks that may come from becoming sexually experienced prior to marriage?

I am familiar with some sociological studies which suggest otherwise (Dr. Laura's web site has links to several good books on the issue), but I am interested to hear what others may have to say.

How about it Runtu, Liz, Seven, and Harmony, do you think it best for your kids to become sexually experienced prior to marriage? Would you want them to go about sexually sampling in order to make sure there is a good sexual fit?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I disagree with Beastie on that one point, yes.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have two cousins who were raped. One was raped by her homecoming date when she was sixteen and became pregnant with twins, whom she gave up for adoption. She is active in the church today, but went through a long period during which she felt cheap and dirty for not having fought her rapist hard enough. At BYU, she married a man who immediately began beating her, but she suffered in silence until he beat her so badly that she ended up in the ER. She told my mother that she felt like she was lucky to have her husband because (does this sound familiar?) no one else would want her.

Oh I cannot begin to describe how ANGRY THIS MAKES ME!!!!!!!!! THIS IS the DIRECT result of teachings like the cupcake deal, the nail and hole in the board, the third worst sin being applied to ALL cases of sexual sins. My heart goes out to this poor woman.

My other cousin was raped at age 12 by a neighbor in Provo. Instead of going to the police, she went to her bishop, who told her that she shouldn't have put herself in that position. The boy involved was not questioned by the bishop or anyone else. By age 20, my cousin had tried to kill herself half a dozen times and repeatedly said she felt worthless and damaged

.


Another reason bishops need to be trained. Stupidity is not a disqaulifier for the call I guess.

That's why I don't believe the "licked cupcake" analogy is benign. I'd prefer being straight with my kids. I'd rather have them talk to your disabled friend about the consequences of promiscuity than tell them that they will always be "damaged goods" if they have sex even once.

Is is not benign it is a cancer that needs to be purged forever. So Wade, is this the over reactions of hsterical feminists?

[_Seven]

At weddings that you feel this wonderfuyl spirit how DO YOU know who is and is not a virgin. You may be at a temple wedding where neiher coupl;e is a virgin but both having repented are no able to attend the temple.

In the examples I gave, I was close to the couple and knew they were both virgins. In another case, they were not virgins but had both abstained from sex with eachother before marriage. The spirit was special at both weddings. Some were temple marriages and some were non Mormon. It wasn't about them being virgins (some were not), but about them waiting to have sex before their marriage. It made it more special to witness. The wedding I witnessed that did not carry a special feeling at all, was the couple who had been living together and having sex for years with eachother. Just didn't carry the same spirit with it.

If you know your partner can control his or her passions and wait until marriage, it's a good sign they will be able to remain faithful to you and the covenants made to God during the marriage as well.

I do not agree at all. Young people may have trouble bridlign their passions but end up changing and entering into a very mice long term mongomous relationship.

I agree with you in part. I think there are many teens who make mistakes and repent later. I don't think it's fair to judge how a person will be as a spouse based on the teenage years, In one of my posts I even mentioned something about people who are loyal in serial monogamous relationships. . If people have truly repented, then it really doesn't matter if they are virgins.
But, I have seen a few examples of teens in my area who were wild, repented and went on missions, but then as spouses went back to some of their wild ways. I don't know how common that is, and I believe most people probably regret and forsake those sins but for my own children, and myself, I would prefer a spouse who was a virgin and obeyed the commandement of chastity. It's not a requirement, and not something I would disqualify a potential spouse over, but preferred for several reasons.

I also know a man who had engaged in pre marital sex and married a virgin. It became a burden for him because he felt so unworthy of her. She didn't feel that way about him and never had an issue with it. She loved the man he had become, but he was always haunted by the sin.

To bad. The fellow should have been able to work through it if he had repented. Allegedly the atonement fo Christ makes us new.

Yeah, it is sad, but that is the reality of making a poor choice. There are consequences to breaking the law of chastity. I believe he is forgiven, and he knows he is forgiven, but he still regretted the sin. I think the toughest part of the attonement is forgiving ourselves, which is why it is best to avoid serious sins.

[_beastie]

There is a very wide spectrum in sexual activity that seems to be ignored in these comments. Certainly people who engage in very promiscuous behavior are probably more likely to return to promiscuous behavior in the future. But it's not just promiscuous sexuality that is condemned in Mormonism and by others. It's just premarital sex in general. I've been in a monogamous, faithful and sexually active relationship with my significant other for ten years. That's hardly promiscuous behavior that would mark either of us "at risk" for future fidelity. Most people in the world fall in between the seeming dichotomy presented on this thread - they're not virgins when they get married, but nor were they sexually promiscuous. They were sexually active when in serious, long-term relationships.

For me, it is more important that my children delay marriage until their late twenties or preferably early thirties than it is that they be virgins. I think it is unrealistic to expect human beings with normal sexual drives and desires for close human contact (not just sexual) to be completely chaste that long. In fact, I think expecting such complete chastity sets people up to make some really bad decisions as far as marrying is concerned. Why do you think LDS marry at a younger age than the rest of society? It's not because they are in a hurry to have kids. They're in a hurry to have sex. Marriage is such an important decision it ought not to be rushed for any reason.

I married my exhusband within three months of meeting him. My significant other married his exwife within two and half months of meeting her. We were not unusual at BYU. Frankly, the rest of the world would be shocked by people getting married so fast. Why is it so common in Mormonism? It's the desire to have sex that is clouding the decision making facilities.

Again, I'm not sharing this in the expectation that people with religious reasons for banning premarital sex are going to change their minds. I'm sharing my views on this matter, and why I do not expect my children to be virgins when they marry, and actually hope they are not.