Sin of Sodom: Homosexuality in the Bible.

[_Gazelam]

I agree with Bryan in that there was a great deal wrong with these cities beyond a disregard for the Laws of chastity. For them to get to this point, there had to be a large number of principles cast aside.

In reference to Gen 19:5 there is a footnote in the LDS edition.

5a ‘Know’ is used both in Hebrew and English in this kind of context as a euphemism in place of a sexual word.

Judg. 19: 22 (22-28).

22 ¶ Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

Isa. 3: 9.

9 ¶ The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

TG Homosexuality.

[_Jersey Girl]

I agree with Bryan in that there was a great deal wrong with these cities beyond a disregard for the Laws of chastity. For them to get to this point, there had to be a large number of principles cast aside.

In reference to Gen 19:5 there is a footnote in the LDS edition.

5a ‘Know’ is used both in Hebrew and English in this kind of context as a euphemism in place of a sexual word.

Judg. 19: 22 (22-28).

22 ¶ Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

Isa. 3: 9.

9 ¶ The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

TG Homosexuality.

Gaz...are you implying that the men of the city of Sodom were homosexual?

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

Another question, if verses 7 and 8 suggest the potential or desire for homosexual activity on the part of the "men"...

When Lot offers his daughters why does he say this:

"and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

He didn't say that:

Genesis 19:
8 Look, I have two daughters who have never had sexual relations with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do to them whatever you please.

This is an excellent example of why to avoid the KJV. You're exegeting the English.

Fortigurn,

The link you gave (thanks!) when interpreting the above "whatever you please" interprets it in the Hebrew as "as is good in your eyes". What do you make of that?

Jersey Girl

[_Gazelam]

Gaz...are you implying that the men of the city of Sodom were homosexual?

Jersey Girl

Jersey, I think that some may have been, maybe not all. I think it was probably more accepted there than it is among modern society. Just think of a wicked city, and what it would be like to be in an enviorment like that. Good is bad, Bad is good. Morals upside down.

I can picture a group of roughnecks around a house yelling "Bring them out, we want to "F" them" then giggleing amongst themselves.

[_Jersey Girl]

Gaz...are you implying that the men of the city of Sodom were homosexual?

Jersey Girl

Jersey, I think that some may have been, maybe not all. I think it was probably more accepted there than it is among modern society. Just think of a wicked city, and what it would be like to be in an enviorment like that. Good is bad, Bad is good. Morals upside down.

I can picture a group of roughnecks around a house yelling "Bring them out, we want to "F" them" then giggleing amongst themselves.

Gaz,

If we are to accept the translation of the word "know" in this context as Fortigurn suggests, then considering the fact that the text says "all the men" of Sodom, then it seems impossible to me that all the men of the town would have been homosexual. I'd have to go with male/male gang rape in describing this.


Well, let's see where it goes. We'll never have a solid interpretation of the scripts.

Jersey Girl

[_Fortigurn]

Fortigurn,

The link you gave (thanks!) when interpreting the above "whatever you please" interprets it in the Hebrew as "as is good in your eyes". What do you make of that?

What I make of that is that you should spend some time on a professional Bible translation email discussion list (I suggest this one, since it's the best one I know).

The footnote does not 'interpret it in the Hebrew' as 'as is good in your eyes'. The footnote gives the literal Hebrew, and explains the translation.

The literal Hebrew is 'do as is good in your eyes'. The meaning of the literal Hebrew is 'do whatever you please'. The phrase 'do as is good in your eyes' means 'do whatever you please'. Just like the Hebrew phrase 'a deep lip and a heavy tongue' means 'a language which cannot be understood'.

[_Jersey Girl]

Fortigurn,

The link you gave (thanks!) when interpreting the above "whatever you please" interprets it in the Hebrew as "as is good in your eyes". What do you make of that?

What I make of that is that you should spend some time on a professional Bible translation email discussion list (I suggest this one, since it's the best one I know).

The footnote does not 'interpret it in the Hebrew' as 'as is good in your eyes'. The footnote gives the literal Hebrew, and explains the translation.

The literal Hebrew is 'do as is good in your eyes'. The meaning of the literal Hebrew is 'do whatever you please'. The phrase 'do as is good in your eyes' means 'do whatever you please'. Just like the Hebrew phrase 'a deep lip and a heavy tongue' means 'a language which cannot be understood'.

Thank you, Fortigurn for the new link. Do you agree or disagree that the behavior "desired" in the passage points to male/male gang rape, likely a gang dominated by heterosexual males?

Jersey Girl

[_Fortigurn]

Thank you, Fortigurn for the new link.

Welcome. I have spent about 6 years on that email discussion list, and learned a great deal. I've also participated quite a lot also. I have a much better understanding of the complexities involved in Bible translation than I did previously.

Do you agree or disagree that the behavior "desired" in the passage points to male/male gang rape, likely a gang dominated by heterosexual males?

I believe it definitely points to male/male gang rape. As to the proportion of heterosexuals to homosexuals, I don't believe we're in a position to know. What is clear is that this activity is condemned.

[_Jersey Girl]

Thank you, Fortigurn for the new link.

Welcome. I have spent about 6 years on that email discussion list, and learned a great deal. I've also participated quite a lot also. I have a much better understanding of the complexities involved in Bible translation than I did previously.

Do you agree or disagree that the behavior "desired" in the passage points to male/male gang rape, likely a gang dominated by heterosexual males?

I believe it definitely points to male/male gang rape. As to the proportion of heterosexuals to homosexuals, I don't believe we're in a position to know. What is clear is that this activity is condemned.

Thanks, I think this is going to be my last question for now. Given the fact that the passage in question points to male/male gang rape In other words non-consensual sex, do you reject that this particular passage represents a blanket condemnation of homosexual sex?

Cutting to the chase here. The answer should be obvious, I'd like to see it noted here.

Jersey Girl

[_Fortigurn]

Thanks, I think this is going to be my last question for now. Given the fact that the passage in question points to male/male gang rape In other words non-consensual sex, do you reject that this particular passage represents a blanket condemnation of homosexual sex?

Cutting to the chase here. The answer should be obvious, I'd like to see it noted here.

Yes I do, because while it's clear that these men intended to do what they wanted, it's also clear that they had no interest in sex with the women. These men were interested in homosexual sex. This isn't simply a matter of rape.