Why Do Mormons Have a Tendancy to be Judgmental?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

The gospel does not encourage this type of behavior, yet it seems to be very prevalent in Church members.

I disagree. Mormon culture is at its basest levels a surveilance society built on top of a social network. it is by design a tattle-tale enforcing group.

When I'm speaking of the gospel, I'm referring to the scriptures. I agree that the current culture of Mormonism lends itself to judgmentalism, and I think it's a shame that it does. I see a huge contrast in the cultural organizational structure of the Church and what is supposedly being taught.

But now we're back to the unanswerable question of what is true gospel doctrine, and what is simply Mormon culture. Finding the answer to that question is like finding the holy grail. And from the perspective of your average church going member, there is no distinction between Mormon culture and Mormon doctrine.

[_Quantumwave]

Why Do Mormons Have a Tendency to be Judgmental?

I may not be entirely qualified to answer the question, due to the fact that I am no longer a Mormon and haven’t been for some time, but I won’t let this triviality get in the way.

The question presumes that Mormons do have a judgmental nature, and I would read into this the assumption that Mormons are more judgmental than the human population in general.

I will proffer the argument that making judgments is human nature, but then I doubt this is what Liz has in mind. There is a big difference between judging Samantha is not temple-worthy because I saw her on the tennis court in a skimpy outfit that precludes garments, and making the judgment that suicide bombers are homophobic, malevolent, bloodthirsty freaks.

Both of those arguments are improper. If Samantha dresses for tennis or swimming, it is completely her call as to what she wears. As for suicide bombers, I must admit that looking back on my own childhood, if my immediate family were militant Muslims who inculcated that philosophy during my formative years, I could easily have become convinced to give my life in the “service of Allah”.

Being judgmental is necessary to determine “root cause” of problems to enable implementation an effective corrective action.

Like anything else, from a societal point of view, judgment can be constructive or destructive, but making judgments is necessary for progress.

[_Mercury]

And from the perspective of your average church going member, there is no distinction between Mormon culture and Mormon doctrine.

Except when Mormon culture is detrimental to "the one true gospel". Then its pigeon holed out of their minds as "irrelevant".

[_marg]

In many ways, we suffer from the same ignorance the followers of the Law of Moses suffered. They refused to accept the new law of Christ because it messed up their idea of record keeping...their idea of keeping score on how close they were to reaching salvation. They couldn't see the forest through the trees.

Because this relates to this thread, I brought it over here. Could you explain to me what you are talking about Liz.

Who are the followers of the Law of Moses that you are referring to?

What was their ignorance that you are referring to?

What do you mean by your second sentence?

What "forest through the trees" couldn't they see?

In looking at this statement, I realized that I wasn't clear in who I was referring to. Thanks for bringing this over here, Marg. I agree. It does relate to the current topic.

I was referring to those followers of the Law of Moses (Old Testament law) who had a hard time accepting Christ's message in the New Testament. The people during His time were so used to following the ancient Law of Moses, and were so busy "taking x amount of steps to the temple....only eating this or that" that they failed to recognize that Christ, in his coming, not only fulfilled the old law, but He brought with Him a new law, a higher law.

My point was that I think that LDS culture makes it very easy to have that same type of "Old Testament" mentality. It's easy to get caught up in tracking and record keeping. Instead of going to Church to worship, it becomes like another work day. We get caught up in meetings (I'm talking about organizational meetings, not Sunday School or Sacrament Meeting), turning in reports (Visiting Teaching/Home Teaching reports, Missionary reports, etc.). We get lost in simply "going through the motions", and actually following the teachings of Christ gets put on the back burner. We're too busy.

When you say "that they failed to recognize that Christ, in his coming, not only fulfilled the old law, but He brought with Him a new law, a higher law." there appears to be a little bit of judgmentalism in there, from my perspective. There appears to be a belief that somehow you have knowledge which others have failed to catch onto and that this belief you hold supercedes the beliefs of those others who failed to catch on. Why do you assume others failed?

As far as peculiar requirements of any religious group, such as what foods to eat which you mentioned, it's important to any group to differentiate itself from others. If there weren't peculiarities such what to eat or not, what steps to follow etc. then one group would be pretty much the same as another and there'd be little reason to chose one group over another. However if these pecularities are too excessive it can discourage potential converts.

Barriers to entry also discourage new members. Perhaps the "followers of the law of Moses" were not interested in recruiting additional people but more interested in developing a strong united tribe. So for example circumcision in Judaism was a high barrier to entry which could lose potential converts, but perhaps that didn't concern them. Perhaps those who started Christianity were interested in encouraging recruits outside of Jews, Romans for example and eased up on the barriers to entry.

Mormonism has fairly low barriers to entry, it's easy to join, but it has high barriers to exit. A lot of pressure is put on members to not leave. One of those pressures is what you are referring to "judgementalism". It is encouraged by Church leadership that those who leave be negatively judged.

The church promotes the idea that its "moral values" are much higher than those outside it. It also promotes a peculiar culture which serves to differentiate itself from other religous groups. Expectations of large amounts of time in working for the church gives people a sense of purpose, that somehow they are accomplishing something worthwhile. It keeps them busy and involved with others in the group leaving less time for a social life outside the group. The promoted moral superiority attitude discourages members from leaving for fear of being negatively judged and ostracized (which is encouraged).

From a business point of view, it's all part of the marketing plan to promote and differentiate its product from others offered.

[_Yoda]

When you say "that they failed to recognize that Christ, in his coming, not only fulfilled the old law, but He brought with Him a new law, a higher law." there appears to be a little bit of judgmentalism in there, from my perspective. There appears to be a belief that somehow you have knowledge which others have failed to catch onto and that this belief you hold supercedes the beliefs of those others who failed to catch on. Why do you assume others failed?

OK, Marg, you're really mincing words here. I'm not using "failed" in the context that you seem to imply that I am. I'm not saying that these people were "failures" in their lives. Again, you seem to be bent on picking my words apart and ignoring my broader concept. I'm not going to re-analyze every word I choose for your satisfaction.

If you read my entire statement, I stated that they failed, I'll further clarify, failed in the sense that they didn't seem to grasp the fact that Jesus, by his own teachings, not by my "judgmental perception", came to fulfill a higher law.

I was not making a judgment call on these people. I was making a comparison that those involved in the LDS religion seem to have similar perceptions as those during this time frame in the New Testament.

Since it seems like we both agree as far as our disgruntlement with Mormon culture, why are you choosing to mince words with me when my point seems fairly clear?

[_moksha]

"I'm starting with the man in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his waaaaayyyys."

There is truth to this: Our own internalized changes can then be mirrored for positive change by our fellow co-religionists. We change what we can and allow the rest of the Universe to fall into place.

[_marg]

Liz I'm having difficulty understanding what your point or argument is.

For some reason you are equating "Old testament mentality" with judgmentalism of Mormonism.

What is "old testament mentality"?


You say the following

My point was that I think that LDS culture makes it very easy to have that same type of "Old Testament" mentality. It's easy to get caught up in tracking and record keeping. Instead of going to Church to worship, it becomes like another work day. We get caught up in meetings (I'm talking about organizational meetings, not Sunday School or Sacrament Meeting), turning in reports (Visiting Teaching/Home Teaching reports, Missionary reports, etc.). We get lost in simply "going through the motions", and actually following the teachings of Christ gets put on the back burner. We're too busy.

Do you think the reason a group of people would be judgmental of others has anything to do with being too busy working?

I did address why I think Mormons are judgmental. I think it is encouraged by church leadership. They want members to negatively judge those who leave which has the effect of discouraging current members from leaving knowing that if they do that's how they will be viewed and treated. In addition, Mormonism encourages members to view themselves as morally superior to those outside their group. And any group which views itself as morally superior to others will be judgmental of those not in the group.

So my counter to you is that the problem is not that people are too busy to learn "to follow the teachings of Christ" whatever you think that entails but rather the church has reasons for promoting that its members be negatively "judgmental" of those outside their group.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Liz, i'm jumping to the conclusion that, "You are a convert." IF so you have an idealizism that has difficulty differentiating between "the gospel" and "Mormonism"... Not altogether one and the same thing...

Seems You tend to have Christian ideals that are 'inclusive' as Christianism generally, in its higher understanding exemplifies...

Mormonism, OTOH is 'exclusive', and as such, low grade Christian. Being insecure as Christians their security comes from Mormonisn. Therefore, ID badges, uniforms, passes, postures, etc, are essential in attempt to keep the 'unwashed' from contamiating the 'washed'...

In such an institutional environment vigilance is essential for self preservation. So suspect is encoured by osmosis if not overtly. Congrats on remaining Christian in Mormonism ;-) Not all are... Warm regards, Roger

[_Yoda]

Hi Liz, I'm jumping to the conclusion that, "You are a convert." IF so you have an idealizism that has difficulty differentiating between "the gospel" and "Mormonism"... Not altogether one and the same thing...

Seems You tend to have Christian ideals that are 'inclusive' as Christianism generally, in its higher understanding exemplifies...

Mormonism, OTOH is 'exclusive', and as such, low grade Christian. Being insecure as Christians their security comes from Mormonisn. Therefore, ID badges, uniforms, passes, postures, etc, are essential in attempt to keep the 'unwashed' from contamiating the 'washed'...

In such an institutional environment vigilance is essential for self preservation. So suspect is encoured by osmosis if not overtly. Congrats on remaining Christian in Mormonism ;-) Not all are... Warm regards, Roger

Thanks, Roger. :)

Actually, I have been a member of the Church all my life. My father, however, is a convert. And the area of Northern California I grew up in has a strong Catholic influence. I have always felt comfortable attending different churches and gaining perspective on different religions and cultures.

One thing that I have concluded is that there is good in all forms of worship. I disagree with the Church's stance that we are "the one true Church" and that everyone else will miss the mark on salvation.

Maybe I am too idealistic when it comes to thinking that we, as members can change our perspective on judging each other.

I'm just sick of it, and think it's pointless. I'm tired of it in "real life", and I'm tired of it on the message boards.

[_Yoda]

Marg--

I have addressed your concerns in bold:

Liz I'm having difficulty understanding what your point or argument is.

That's because you're looking for an argument where there isn't one. My OP was started to promote a discussion as to why Mormons tend to be judgmental. All I'm asking for is different opinions. You seem hell-bent on arguing with me.

For some reason you are equating "Old testament mentality" with judgmentalism of Mormonism.

No. YOU pulled over some of my comments from Harmony's thread on why we revere counsel from ancient writings. Since my comments were somewhat interrelated, I obliged to engage you in a conversation concerning my comments, even though they weren't exactly part of the original topic. You have obviously misunderstood what I was saying. I probably should not have addressed your issues in this thread, because my points have become blurred. My point, as a follow-up to Blixa's comments, was that because Mormons tend to focus on outward appearances, and become caught up in "how many earrings someone is wearing" or "were they wearing garments under their exercise clothes", that the big picture items of actually following the teachings of Christ become lost in the shuffle. My comment was that I found this sadly ironic.

What is "old testament mentality"?

What I meant by "Old Testament mentality" was that the followers of the Law of Moses were given very exact rules to follow. This rule-based order was how they measured their future salvation. When Christ came, and fulfilled the lower law, his teachings were not easy to grasp for some who were so caught up in the "rules" that they couldn't see past what Christ was trying to teach. You accused me of making a judgment call on these people. I didn't. I simply re-stated what the scriptures had pointed out in countless stories of Jesus' teachings. Not all of the people he tried to teach understood his concepts because they were caught up in the lower law. If my term, "old testament mentality", offended you, than I apologize.


You say the following

My point was that I think that LDS culture makes it very easy to have that same type of "Old Testament" mentality. It's easy to get caught up in tracking and record keeping. Instead of going to Church to worship, it becomes like another work day. We get caught up in meetings (I'm talking about organizational meetings, not Sunday School or Sacrament Meeting), turning in reports (Visiting Teaching/Home Teaching reports, Missionary reports, etc.). We get lost in simply "going through the motions", and actually following the teachings of Christ gets put on the back burner. We're too busy.

Do you think the reason a group of people would be judgmental of others has anything to do with being too busy working?

As I previously stated, No, that was not my point at all.


I did address why I think Mormons are judgmental. I think it is encouraged by church leadership. They want members to negatively judge those who leave which has the effect of discouraging current members from leaving knowing that if they do that's how they will be viewed and treated. In addition, Mormonism encourages members to view themselves as morally superior to those outside their group. And any group which views itself as morally superior to others will be judgmental of those not in the group.

So my counter to you is that the problem is not that people are too busy to learn "to follow the teachings of Christ" whatever you think that entails but rather the church has reasons for promoting that its members be negatively "judgmental" of those outside their group.

I appreciate your view and your theory. The whole point of my OP was to find out what others thought was the reason for this attitude. I don't understand why you felt the need to "counter" me. This is not a debate, and you're trying to make it one.