Shout out to RenegadeofPhunk!!!

[_beastie]

If Ray did not compare exmos to Nazis, I apologize, but that was how I read it and reacted accordingly.

Well, that's certainly how I read it, too, but Ray insists that was not his intent. Again, I think the distinction is far too fine for the target to recognize.

[_Ray A]

Of course. It had to be something to do with gays.

When a religion is as homophobic as the LDS Church, nearly any policy change could be positive.

Does your bishop know you have these views? If so, what does he think?

[_Ray A]

Get one thing straight vegemite-for-brains, Exmos and the world at large do not hold to your antiquated system of "standards". We hold ourselves to higher powers, truth and scholarship. You rail against our more accurate perceptions of these things. My naziesque comparrison of your views underscores just how messed up your perception of exmos is.

You are one of angry exmos I'm talking about. You are a kid, and angry and messed up one too. You need not lecture me on my "perception" of exmos. You were in diapers when I became an exmo. There are people like Bond trying to launch salvos at me, when Bond hardly knows little about these issues in depth.

You're right, beastie, there will never be dialogue. I tried, and the reason I turned is because Wade is perfectly right. Until some of you remove your prejudices, anger, bitterness, proactive need to "change" Mormonism, constant diatribes against the Church, Church leaders, and individual Mormons, you will never get understanding from Mormons. I undertand both sides, and let me remind you that I opposed Wade in the past. I softened, and I listened to Mormons (on forums) more. I changed my attitudes.

I would not normally be like this, but the lack of understanding, and sheer ill-will displayed here is what has soured me, somewhat like what happened on RFM and exmo-social. Nothing else, beastie. Posting here is like posting in a pool of biting pirahna biting full of sarcasm and cynicism. So I'm doing some biting back. You think I'm a TBM? I'm a person trying to reason with people who cannot be reasoned with. You have hardened yourselves, and this is evidenced by the constant attacks on Wade as well. I understand his views on this, because I can see his point of view.

In any dialogue, you have to give and take. Wade has tried. And as I've said before, if you really want to understand the source of Pahoran's "attitudes", it's because he too has become completely tired of attacks on his Church, and his religion. Now please don't go back to this "Joseph Smith started it all". If it bugs you so much, leave it alone. I have become sick to death of it.

[_Ray A]

Only apostates try to drag people out of the Church. You don't realise what you're doing, but 10 or 20 years down the track, you will see. You think I don't know what I'm talking about? I only hope God gives you the strength to endure. You don't know what I know. I went through all of this over 20 years ago, and at the time I was just as stupid as you are now.

Oh, spare me the superiority complex (when I was your age, I walked barefoot in the snow 6 miles to school uphill, both ways). You know absolutely nothing about me and my family. If you did, I'd highly doubt you'd accuse me of the nonsense that you're just making up.

You don't have to believe me (and I suspect that you won't), but 'dragging' anyone out of the church is the last thing I'm trying to do. The last thing I want is for my wife to resent me for something. If she leaves the church, she's doing it on her own. And guess what? She is.

I feel sorry for you, if that's what you did with your wife and family (try to drag them out of the church). But just because you did, doesn't mean we all did.

Is this the source of your anger Ray?

And likewise, you know nothing about me. No, I did not "drag" anyone in my family out of the Church, but a father is very influential on his family. Do you understand that? I'm not telling you what to do. I felt I had to leave in 1987. This was the "journey" I had to take, and it has been a very costly one, but not one from which I didn't benefit in many other ways, as I explained. Something like how people have to fight wars to learn that wars are not worth fighting.

It's your choice. It's your life. Go for it. Follow your bliss. But do you have to bring Mormons down by constant sarcasm and cynicism as we see on this board? Do you have to join the mob and attack them? If you have truly found a better life, walk away, and let your family see your fine example of the happiness you say you've found. Throw a shrimp on the barbie, and go enjoy your newfound life. Or if you want to dialogue with Mormons, and you want them to understand how you feel, fine, but there will be no understanding until you get rid of your "superiority complex", which leads you to think that Mormons are just plain wrong, and even deluded. They believe for a reason, just like you disbelieve for a reason. Try to understand why they continue to believe. It's not because they are idiots.

[_beastie]

And there you have it, folks. Wade is right!!! We are psychologically disturbed. There's really nothing wrong with the church - it is what is wrong with exmormons that is the problem.

And why? Because we object to Ray's inflammatory speech about exmormons being the moral equivalent of Luther, whose hate speech incited Nazi violence. Because we point out that while there is no doubt some exmormons engage in inflammatory speech, the evidence is clear that Mormons do too.

But it's different when Mormons do it. For some reason, it doesn't count. Exmormons can be called all sorts of names, even by the most respected leaders of Mormonism, and we're supposed to "wear it". But when exmormons do it... well, we're bitter, prejudiced, bigots who are psychologically disturbed.

Bada Bing!

[_Runtu]

And there you have it, folks. Wade is right!!! We are psychologically disturbed. There's really nothing wrong with the church - it is what is wrong with exmormons that is the problem.

And why? Because we object to Ray's inflammatory speech about exmormons being the moral equivalent of Luther, whose hate speech incited Nazi violence. Because we point out that while there is no doubt some exmormons engage in inflammatory speech, the evidence is clear that Mormons do too.

But it's different when Mormons do it. For some reason, it doesn't count. Exmormons can be called all sorts of names, even by the most respected leaders of Mormonism, and we're supposed to "wear it". But when exmormons do it... well, we're bitter, prejudiced, bigots who are psychologically disturbed.

Bada Bing!

You know, I just feel bad about the way this has all played out with anger and bitterness on both sides. It's discouraging, but I'm still convinced that it's possible to have positive and uplifting dialogue between believers and critics.

Let's not let the hate and rhetoric distract us from reality. The reality is that most of us are just people looking for truth in our lives. Yes, I've seen hate on both sides, but it doesn't have to overwhelm us.

[_Who Knows]

And likewise, you know nothing about me. No, I did not "drag" anyone in my family out of the Church, but a father is very influential on his family. Do you understand that? I'm not telling you what to do. I felt I had to leave in 1987. This was the "journey" I had to take, and it has been a very costly one, but not one from which I didn't benefit in many other ways, as I explained. Something like how people have to fight wars to learn that wars are not worth fighting.

It's your choice. It's your life. Go for it. Follow your bliss. But do you have to bring Mormons down by constant sarcasm and cynicism as we see on this board? Do you have to join the mob and attack them? If you have truly found a better life, walk away, and let your family see your fine example of the happiness you say you've found. Throw a shrimp on the barbie, and go enjoy your newfound life. Or if you want to dialogue with Mormons, and you want them to understand how you feel, fine, but there will be no understanding until you get rid of your "superiority complex", which leads you to think that Mormons are just plain wrong, and even deluded. They believe for a reason, just like you disbelieve for a reason. Try to understand why they continue to believe. It's not because they are idiots.

I don't believe I've said 'Mormons are deluded' or are 'idiots'. It's like you think you're talking to VegasR or something. Or you're lumping us all in with him. In fact I've long stated that it all comes down to faith. Mormons have faith in something that I can't see any reason to have faith in. Great. Good for you. Good for them. It's when Mormons accuse me of 'being possessed by satan' or 'you left because you were sinning' or 'you know it's true, you just can't live up to the standards' or 'you're ruining your life' or 'you had an affair' or 'you must not love your family if you don't want to go to the celestial kingdom with them' or etc. etc. I suppose some of my 'sarcasm' or 'cynicism' is a result of that.

Like I said earlier, I'm perfectly willing to walk away and never look back - as soon as my wife and family are out. As long as Mormonism is still a huge part of my life, i'll be here. You have a problem with that? You think there's something wrong with that?

How about I say this to you - if you think the church is true, if you think the Book of Mormon is true - why don't you go to church? Instead of spending your time here chastizing all of us, why don't you go read your scriptures. Go home teaching. Go do some missionary work. Go get a calling and start doing it. Go back to the temple.

In the meantime, take a chill-pill, and stop being such a jackass to some of the great people here.

...you can still be a jackass to VR... :)

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Does your bishop know you have these views? If so, what does he think?

Yes, he does. He honors my right to think and opine as I choose.

[_Ray A]

In the meantime, take a chill-pill, and stop being such a jackass to some of the great people here.

...you can still be a jackass to VR... :)

What's the difference between you and VR? Vegas speaks what bitter apostates like you think. That much I will give him. Don't try to increase your credibility by distancing Vegas. He's one of you, and you've said nothing about him before this. So don't turn on him to make you more credible in my eyes, you two-timing A-hole.

[_Ray A]

You know, I just feel bad about the way this has all played out with anger and bitterness on both sides. It's discouraging, but I'm still convinced that it's possible to have positive and uplifting dialogue between believers and critics.

Let's not let the hate and rhetoric distract us from reality. The reality is that most of us are just people looking for truth in our lives. Yes, I've seen hate on both sides, but it doesn't have to overwhelm us.

I would like to give you some credibility, but I'm not going to. I now understand why Pahoran doesn't. I think he's smarter than I am, and sized you all up a long time ago. When you disown this puke-hole of anti-Mormon bile, I will think more highly of you.