Have you ever had any experiences with manipulating Mormons

[_Mercury]

Maybe it is just me, but I haven't found Machiavellianism to be an admirable quality for one's character--certainly not something to gloat about, though it may lend itself to smugness and a false sense of superiority.

Why don't you see it as an admirable quality? joseph Smith might as well have had a copy of "The Prince" in his back pocket.

Brigham Young too.

All the way up to todays president of teh LDS corporation, Machiavellian tactics FUEL this socioeconomic cluster known as Mormonism.

Get with the program, your living proof that Machiavellian tactics are alive and well.

[_Yong Xi]

A person who believes in promiscuous premarital sex, recreational drug use, gambling, prostitution, swearing, masturbating in the bathroom when his wife has a headache, who mocks and jeers at the beliefs of others about Christ, and very conveniently believes that nothing he does here has any bearing on any potential life after this one, Now begins to speak to us about...spirituality?

What might someone who "thinks for themselves" make of all this, I wonder?

Schmo has obviously lost his ability to think for himself. He even said that he wouldn't convert to Mormonism for a billion dollars. Now what kind of logic is that? The guy is nuts. What a Schmuck!

[_Coggins7]

Why don't you see it as an admirable quality? joseph Smith might as well have had a copy of "The Prince" in his back pocket.

Brigham Young too.

All the way up to todays president of teh LDS corporation, Machiavellian tactics FUEL this socioeconomic cluster known as Mormonism.

Get with the program, your living proof that Machiavellian tactics are alive and well.

Care to make an intellectually mature, substantive statement about something?

[_moksha]

Maybe it is just me, but I haven't found Machiavellianism to be an admirable quality for one's character--certainly not something to gloat about, though it may lend itself to smugness and a false sense of superiority.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Absolutely right Wade. by the way, have you wondered if God keeps the Angels close and Machiavelli even closer?

[_Sethbag]

For what it's worth, Schmo can do what he likes, but I would go back to full activity in the church, and profess total agreement with everything, for a billion dollars.

For that matter, I'd do that for a measly million dollars. Oops, shouldn't have said that, maybe someone would have given me the full billion.

:-)

[_Mercury]

Why don't you see it as an admirable quality? joseph Smith might as well have had a copy of "The Prince" in his back pocket.

Brigham Young too.

All the way up to todays president of teh LDS corporation, Machiavellian tactics FUEL this socioeconomic cluster known as Mormonism.

Get with the program, your living proof that Machiavellian tactics are alive and well.

Care to make an intellectually mature, substantive statement about something?

Well, im just following your lead. I haven't seen anything from you but your rear end and a tail between you back legs.

[_Roger Morrison]

Wade, thanks for the link. It says:

High Machs tend to take a more detached, calculating approach in their interaction with other people. They tend to believe most people are concerned only with their own well-being and to depend too much on anyone else is foolish. They believe some of the most efficient ways to achieve a goal are to use deception, rewards, promises, flattery, and even punishments to manipulate others into doing their bidding. (Bold added by RM)

Don't know whether you intended to point out the High Machism of LDSism, but you did a good job of it. The bolded sentence must ring true to means-serving-ends practices of Mormonism to most honest, experienced Mormons. From my experience: "...sending Church Mags, without covers so Mail Carriers can brouse them..." Statement made in Stake Leadership to "encourage" mag subscription sales... Recent News Letter "encouragement": get tickets to MTChoir performance up-coming in Toronto for non-member friends. Make sure Branch name & address are prominently displayed on community "Food Drive Bins"... Graduating "Certificates" from "Primary" to "Seminary" et al... "...Heaven awaits the obedient..." "...Hell awaits the disobedient..."

Schmo, An interesting letter...smiles, agreements and questions. As any good essay. Are You a born-in? Did You serve a Mission?? Where??

I take a different slant on Missionary-drop-byes. Ever thought "God"--working in mysterious ways--sent them to You for THEIR good? Not for yours... I welcomed two fine young teenage boys into my home the other evening and had a most enjoyable opportunity to discuss THE Gospel. One they new very little about as it is barely, rarely discussed in approved LDS classes and discussions. They left better informed than when they entered...

Would be interested to know if there are stats as to the # of RMs who cease LDS activity???

[_Some Schmo]

Schmo, An interesting letter...smiles, agreements and questions. As any good essay. Are You a born-in? Did You serve a Mission?? Where??

I take a different slant on Missionary-drop-byes. Ever thought "God"--working in mysterious ways--sent them to You for THEIR good? Not for yours... I welcomed two fine young teenage boys into my home the other evening and had a most enjoyable opportunity to discuss THE Gospel. One they new very little about as it is barely, rarely discussed in approved LDS classes and discussions. They left better informed than when they entered...

Would be interested to know if there are stats as to the # of RMs who cease LDS activity???

No, I left the church when I was 17. I did the church recommended method of trying to gain a testimony, but I actually listened for that "still small voice" rather than provide it for myself, and none ever came. There was no way I was going to spend money peddling a religion I never believed in myself.

There's little doubt certain positives could come from going on a mission, but I highly doubt the payoff is worth the cost. Maybe, but it seems unlikely.

Oh, and coggins, did you say something? It was hard to hear above the insecure shrill.

[_wenglund]

Wade, thanks for the link. It says:

High Machs tend to take a more detached, calculating approach in their interaction with other people. They tend to believe most people are concerned only with their own well-being and to depend too much on anyone else is foolish. They believe some of the most efficient ways to achieve a goal are to use deception, rewards, promises, flattery, and even punishments to manipulate others into doing their bidding. (Bold added by RM)

Don't know whether you intended to point out the High Machism of LDSism, but you did a good job of it. The bolded sentence must ring true to means-serving-ends practices of Mormonism to most honest, experienced Mormons. From my experience: "...sending Church Mags, without covers so Mail Carriers can brouse them..." Statement made in Stake Leadership to "encourage" mag subscription sales... Recent News Letter "encouragement": get tickets to MTChoir performance up-coming in Toronto for non-member friends. Make sure Branch name & address are prominently displayed on community "Food Drive Bins"... Graduating "Certificates" from "Primary" to "Seminary" et al... "...Heaven awaits the obedient..." "...Hell awaits the disobedient..."

I had anticipated that there would be some on this board that would fail to grasp the clear distinction between "High Machs" and people acting selflessly in the service of their God. However, I didn't expect it of you. How it is, though, that you would think I had pointed out anything even remotely resembling "High Machism of LDSism", is a mystery to me. But, life can be full of suprises.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

I had anticipated that there would be some on this board that would fail to grasp the clear distinction between "High Machs" and people acting selflessly in the service of their God. However, I didn't expect it of you. How it is, though, that you would think I had pointed out anything even remotely resembling "High Machism of LDSism", is a mystery to me. But, life can be full of suprises.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think the lesson here is that one person's "High Machism" is another person's "people acting selflessly in the service of their God." Dare I say that there's not always a clear distinction between the two?