Sad story of abuse of LDS scout ....

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_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Coggins7 wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Loran,

Will you look at my posts here and tell me how you assess them? Do they make sense to you?

Jersey Girl



I'll get beck to you if I can later tonight, as I'm rather busy in the yard today and I'm trying to limit my participation here to a reasonable degree after a real bender the last couple of weeks (that is, a real bender as to posting here, not--the other kind).


Loran


Hey, that's totally okay. If the weather where you are is anything like ours, you should definitely be working outside. Feel free to disreguard my request. Don't go gettin' a red neck now, ya heah?

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Coggins7
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Response To Jersey

Post by _Coggins7 »

It looks as if we are in broad agreement on the general tenor of the attacks against the Church here, in that both of us see here (if I'm interpreting your posts correctly) both a retreat from the core responsibilities that lie within the purview of the parents of the victim in question as well as a deep pockets fishing expedition by a family that, all other things considered, I wouldn't have any doubts about pursuing such a lawsuit based even upon the flimsiest of grounds. These are precisely the kind of folks that would go looking for millions of dollars in damages if one of them spilled hot coffee in their lap at a fast food restaurant's drive through window.

I find the fact that the same child, many years later, and much older, finds himself in yet another sexual abuse situation, to be fairly interesting. The daughter is, apparently, a prostitute murdered by a serial killer. The father is a violent, oppressive thug. Mental and emotional problems pervade this family system.

I do not understand how (but then, who understands much of what goes on in the present legal system) a church, or any other organization, of which a criminal happens to be a member, can be conceived of as being liable for moral and behavioral choses that individual makes in his own personal life.

Why isn't the BSA being held responsible? Why isn't the motel where one of the assaults happened being hauled into court? Are there other agendas at work here? Is it a matter of who's pockets are deeper?

This is why nobody-nobody at a private residence with a pool, at least if they have any sense, has a diving board, and hasn't for probably 30 years. When bad things happen, someone has to be liable,. Everyone is a victim of either someone else directly, or indirectly through negligence, no matter how far fetched the standard is set as to what should or should not have been done to prevent the tragedy.
_The Nehor
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Re: Response To Jersey

Post by _The Nehor »

Coggins7 wrote:This is why nobody-nobody at a private residence with a pool, at least if they have any sense, has a diving board, and hasn't for probably 30 years. When bad things happen, someone has to be liable,. Everyone is a victim of either someone else directly, or indirectly through negligence, no matter how far fetched the standard is set as to what should or should not have been done to prevent the tragedy.


My parents have one along with a fence but here in Texas we're still pretty big on personal responsibility.....mostly. May this never change.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: Response To Jersey

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Coggins7 wrote:It looks as if we are in broad agreement on the general tenor of the attacks against the Church here, in that both of us see here (if I'm interpreting your posts correctly) both a retreat from the core responsibilities that lie within the purview of the parents of the victim in question as well as a deep pockets fishing expedition by a family that, all other things considered, I wouldn't have any doubts about pursuing such a lawsuit based even upon the flimsiest of grounds. These are precisely the kind of folks that would go looking for millions of dollars in damages if one of them spilled hot coffee in their lap at a fast food restaurant's drive through window.


Cog, you're a dupe of the insurance companies:

McFacts about the McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit

Everyone knows what you're talking about when you mention "the McDonald's lawsuit." Even though this case was decided in August of 1994, for many Americans it continues to represent the "problem" with our civil justice system.

The business community and insurance industry have done much to perpetuate this case. They don't want us to forget it. They know it helps them convince politicians that "tort reform" and other restrictions on juries is needed. And worse, they know it poisons the minds of citizens who sit on juries.

Unfortunately, not all the facts have been communicated - facts that put the case and the monetary award to the 81-year old plaintiff in a significantly different light.

According to the Wall Street journal, McDonald's callousness was the issue and even jurors who thought the case was just a tempest in a coffee pot were overwhelmed by the evidence against the Corporation.

The facts of the case, which caused a jury of six men and six women to find McDonald's coffee was unreasonably dangerous and had caused enough human misery and suffering that no one should be made to suffer exposure to such excessively hot coffee again, will shock and amaze you:

McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.

McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation - and yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue.

McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.

McFact No. 4: The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills.

McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.

McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company. When it came to the punitive damages, the jury found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious, or wanton conduct, and rendered a punitive damage award of 2.7 million dollars. (The equivalent of just two days of coffee sales, McDonalds Corporation generates revenues in excess of 1.3 million dollars daily from the sale of its coffee, selling 1 billion cups each year.)

McFact No. 7: On appeal, a judge lowered the award to $480,000, a fact not widely publicized in the media.

McFact No. 8: A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

The most important message this case has for you, the consumer, is to be aware of the potential danger posed by your early morning pick-me-up. Take extra care to make sure children do not come into contact with scalding liquid, and always look to the facts before rendering your decision about any publicized case.

Courtesy of Legal News and Views, Ohio Academy of Trial Lawyers
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: Response To Jersey

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Coggins7 wrote:I find the fact that the same child, many years later, and much older, finds himself in yet another sexual abuse situation, to be fairly interesting. The daughter is, apparently, a prostitute murdered by a serial killer. The father is a violent, oppressive thug. Mental and emotional problems pervade this family system.


Well, duhh. The family was dysfunctional. That is what made Robert the perfect prey for a pedophile. That's how pedophile's work.

If Robert had simply lost his keys, God would have gladly helped him out, but in a situation of dysfunction preying upon dysfunction, God and his only true church were useless. God called a pedophile to be scoutmaster, God asked the ward to raise their hands in affirmation and they did, but when a dysfunctional mother trusts this man to spend time with her son, trusting this man to be a positive role model for her son, all of a sudden she is to blame.
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Luc-Mac, thanks for your posts, and presence here. Warm regards, Roger
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Roger Morrison wrote:Luc-Mac, thanks for your posts, and presence here. Warm regards, Roger


You are too sweet. The same right back to you!
_harmony
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Re: Response To Jersey

Post by _harmony »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:I find the fact that the same child, many years later, and much older, finds himself in yet another sexual abuse situation, to be fairly interesting. The daughter is, apparently, a prostitute murdered by a serial killer. The father is a violent, oppressive thug. Mental and emotional problems pervade this family system.


Well, duhh. The family was dysfunctional. That is what made Robert the perfect prey for a pedophile. That's how pedophile's work.

If Robert had simply lost his keys, God would have gladly helped him out, but in a situation of dysfunction preying upon dysfunction, God and his only true church were useless. God called a pedophile to be scoutmaster, God asked the ward to raise their hands in affirmation and they did, but when a dysfunctional mother trusts this man to spend time with her son, trusting this man to be a positive role model for her son, all of a sudden she is to blame.


None of that, no matter how sad or true, makes the church responsible for this man's actions while he was not acting as Scoutmaster. That's my point. He was not acting as the Scoutmaster when he assaulted this child. None of the assaults took place at church or during Scout activities.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

harm
None of that, no matter how sad or true, makes the church responsible for this man's actions while he was not acting as Scoutmaster. That's my point. He was not acting as the Scoutmaster when he assaulted this child. None of the assaults took place at church or during Scout activities.


The article doesn't give much detail however based on the information that was given, I agree completely with what you've stated, harm.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: Response To Jersey

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

harmony wrote:
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:I find the fact that the same child, many years later, and much older, finds himself in yet another sexual abuse situation, to be fairly interesting. The daughter is, apparently, a prostitute murdered by a serial killer. The father is a violent, oppressive thug. Mental and emotional problems pervade this family system.


Well, duhh. The family was dysfunctional. That is what made Robert the perfect prey for a pedophile. That's how pedophile's work.

If Robert had simply lost his keys, God would have gladly helped him out, but in a situation of dysfunction preying upon dysfunction, God and his only true church were useless. God called a pedophile to be scoutmaster, God asked the ward to raise their hands in affirmation and they did, but when a dysfunctional mother trusts this man to spend time with her son, trusting this man to be a positive role model for her son, all of a sudden she is to blame.


None of that, no matter how sad or true, makes the church responsible for this man's actions while he was not acting as Scoutmaster. That's my point. He was not acting as the Scoutmaster when he assaulted this child. None of the assaults took place at church or during Scout activities.


I don't think the church is responsible for the man's actions either. The church didn't make him into a pedophile. I think the church had a degree of responsibility for protecting the child, however, after putting this man in a position of Scoutmaster ... unless being Scoutmaster means no messing with kids at Scout functions but it's okay on your own time. A calling from God as Scoutmaster should imply that it is okay for any kids, Scouts or not, to trust that man ... and the church has a degree of liability in this case. The church could avoid this responsibility by announcing its callings as being from the judgment and convenience of the bishopric and making it clear that they are not inspired or sanctioned by God and let the buyer beware.
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