Response to Dan Peterson

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Apparently we have some lurkers who are too indignant to post here, and choose to hide behind their support group at MAD; I’ll go ahead and play along with this cross-board discussion for now. Raz thinks he has me by the short hairs.

Someone has a terrible comprehension problem. Here, I'll do it again for you Graham (it has appeared many times in this thread and, look!, it's even in "list" format):


I agree someone has a problem, but it has nothing to do with me or my comprehension since nothing you listed has been proved. I think the problem is your neophyte understanding of proof. You also have problems understanding what it means to “lie.” Whatever one wants to believe about the editing of the email, it can hardly be denied that I genuinely believed it was. This is supported by the fact that last week I noted, in response to Gee’s email, that “his threat to sue” was ridiculous, and I went further to dare him to do so. Now why would I have written that a week ago if I didn’t really believe Gee said something about a possible lawsuit against his critics? The point here is that if I genuinely believe this to be true, then I am not lying or attempting to deceive.

Further, it appears Dr. Shades recalls this in the initial post as well, although he attributes the commentary to Chaos and not Gee. In any event, what he remembers is no longer there. When I get back in town I’ll check my cached files and see what comes up.

That Gee sent an email with a legal threat in it.


Gee confirmed with Dan that he has considered legal action and has even discussed it with an attorney. I elaborated twice on the thread that Gee never really threatened anyone, but he did allude to the fact that he was entertaining the possibility. This is consistent with Dan’s recent conversation with Gee. Please illustrate where you have proved this didn’t happen.

That the moderators posted said e-mail with said legal threat in it.


Well, naturally they posted it or else we wouldn’t have seen it. You’re just trying to make this into something it isn’t: two possible errors as opposed to one.

That the moderators then edited out the alleged legal threat from the post.


That’s right. Please show me your “proof” that this isn’t true. All you have done is provide the moderator’s say-so; the same moderators who admittedly snoop private messages but lie about their reasons for doing so. Yes, that is something I did actually demonstrate. The Moderators have a history of taking damage control measures, especially when they got busted for snooping into the ironically named “private messages.”

That Peterson somehow influenced the moderators to edit out the alleged threat from the said post of Gee's e-mail.


I didn’t say he influenced them directly. His pedantic reaction to the prospect of a Ritner lawsuit has obviously traumatized the entire board there. They don’t know what to make of his reaction other than to launch out at me as if I made him gossip false rumors. His reaction is even unsettling to me, so imagine how the mods are reacting. They will do what’s best for their “protected” posters. They have a history of this.

DCP is the law there, period. If he lashes out at lawsuits everyone knows they better have all their ducks in order and better not say anything that promotes a lawsuit. Problem was, lawsuits had already been suggested before Dan had time to read these threads, so he ended up condemning comments made by Gee via William Schryver, without even knowing it. So when he starts barking at me and Ritner about how lawsuits impact "real lives" he is undermining Gee's threat via Schryver.

In any event, they forgot to edit out William Schryver’s declaration that “someone” (Gee obviously) told him to warn us all of possible lawsuits if we continued to call Gee incompetent. And yes, I am glad my toungue-in-cheek remarks we able to lighten things up over there. It’s good to see Dan posting again without the depressing doomsday scenarios about how a lawsuit could destroy his life and possibly force his children to the brink of starvation.

While you guys are trying to buy time with these red herrings, we’re all still waiting in anticipation to find out the answer to the real question that matters.

Who was it that told William Schryver to warn us about possible lawsuits?

The apologist on the grassy knoll?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

dartagnan wrote:Apparently we have some lurkers who are too indignant to post here, and choose to hide behind their support group at MAD


I don't understand why every time I post something here that could be taken as even remotely questionable, it seems to turn up over there with people demanding an apology. Are people monitoring me to see if I'm secretly an evil person? Even the mods seem to feel it's their job to moderate my posting here.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

This is a cross-board discussion and the control freaks over there want to have control over all participants, no matter where you are. They don't like people who are nice to their enemies. You have to remember that this is the same bunch who demanded that I present all emails that I had sent to Mauss and Bromley (or be banned!) just because paranoid Juliann had her suspicions (later proved false) that I was talking bad about her.

They really do believe they have control privileges like these.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Before Chaos posted Gee's actual test, he/she gave some background information to it. He/she said, in part, that Gee had been "affected" (or words to that effect) by all the criticism he's been receiving, and has been considering a lawsuit against those who have so "slandered" him.


Ok, so instead of Gee saying Gee was considering a lawsuit, it was Chaos explaining that Gee was considering a lawsuit.

Either way the result is the same: According to the original post, Gee was considering a lawsuit!

So it was the commentary by Chaos that was edited out.

Heck, even Dan's recent conversation noted that Gee is considering a lawsuit (and has even consulted an attorney).

Well, that has been the whole point I have been trying to make. It doesn't matter if Gee literally threatened someone specific or if he is "considering" it. Ritner is also "considering" a lawsuit, and yet Peterson is flipping out, talking about how lives will be devastated as a result.

So my point and question still remain valid.

Will the lives involved in Gee's lawsuit be less devastated?

If Dan thinks it is OK for Gee to wage legal battles against his critics, yet gets all indignant when someone considers the same against him, then he is a hypocrite.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Look, they're just cornered. There is no hope of a rational dialog about this specific question, because some apologists started going on about the silliness of lawsuits without realizing or remembering the heavy insinuations of a possible lawsuit on Gee's part. Now what are they supposed to do? Admit that lawsuits are only silly when it's the other side thinking of filing? Of course not. Hence, the cornered reaction. What else can you expect?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Look, they're just cornered. There is no hope of a rational dialog about this specific question, because some apologists started going on about the silliness of lawsuits without realizing or remembering the heavy insinuations of a possible lawsuit on Gee's part. Now what are they supposed to do? Admit that lawsuits are only silly when it's the other side thinking of filing? Of course not. Hence, the cornered reaction. What else can you expect?


This highlights one of the main problems I had complained about as an apologist in the past. The group is entirely uncoordinated, so naturally they'll end up stepping on each other's toes, tripping over themselves and falling on their faces. If you catch it at the right moment, it welcomes popcorn. It looks like a chaotic "I Love Lucy" skit.

And no, I am not holding out hope for a rational dialogue about this. I'm strictly in defense mode now, as the charges against me are increasing in number and absurdity. And it looks like the quality of debate skills in their new amateurs like Raz, give little reason to suspect things could change for the better anytime soon.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Yong Xi
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Post by _Yong Xi »

Dr. Shades wrote:
dartagnan wrote:I was surprised nobody else remembered it, and if I get home and my cached files don't confirm it, I just might have myself admitted.


That won't be necessary. I certainly remember it.

Before Chaos posted Gee's actual test, he/she gave some background information to it. He/she said, in part, that Gee had been "affected" (or words to that effect) by all the criticism he's been receiving, and has been considering a lawsuit against those who have so "slandered" him.

So no, the threat wasn't posted by Gee himself; it was merely conveyed by Chaos. But it was definitely there.


Shades nailed it.
_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

Hello There Truth Dancer,

You wrote:

I'm just not sure what it is exactly that Kevin did "wrong," (even if there was nothing removed from Gee's post).




The main reason why DCP and some of the other LDS Apologists of the Book of Abraham do not really like Kevin is, because Kevin does not accept and believe in the missing text theory for the Book of Abraham. DCP, John Gee, and a few of the other LDS Apologists of the Book of Abraham believe and promote that the Book of Breathings Text ((also known as Shait en Sensen) "Breathing permit" for the priest Hor text) scroll was Really about 320 Centimeters long, instead of being about 150 Centimeters long. However, Here is what Egyptologist Dr. Robert Ritner wrote:

There is no justification for Gee's unsubstantiated attempt to more than double this figure to '320 cm (about 10 feet)' in Gee, A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri, pp. 10 and 12–13. Gee presumably wishes to allow space for a supposedly 'lost hieratic text' of The Book of Abraham; his figure derives from the average length of a manufactured (blank) Ptolemaic papyrus roll—not comparable, individual documents cut from such a roll.
[ R. Ritner, "Among the Joseph Smith Papyri," Journal of Near Eastern Studies 62.3 (July 2003): 166n33 ]


Here is the Link to this Article:
http://www.utlm.org/other/robertritnerpapyriarticle.pdf

The Book of Breathings Text ((also known as Shait en Sensen) "Breathing permit" for the priest Hor text) scroll was Really only about 150 Centimeters long.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

Here is the Link to A Recent Message I Just Posted on the CTR Forum, In Response to DCP's pretty recent interview about the Book of Abraham:
http://www.kevingraham.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=296
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

I thought KG was converting that site to a BoA-only forum?
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