Now that I've had another pill, I can still say that I disagree with you. Further, I think that the most supernatural person ever to live was Jesus. Everything about him was supernatural from his birth to his resurrection. When I read about the life and times of Jesus I see how he operated in the most supernatural ways known to man. A lot of people can accept this concept. Thereby, there should be some who can also accept that Joseph Smith was involved in supernatural things as well.
On what basis do you leap to this conclusion? Joseph never claimed to be supernatural. Joseph and Jesus are not in the same class at all.
So, if you will come out of your comfort box you will find there is much more in the universe than you want to allow. Get out of your little box! Do you think that God and prophets have to do what you say in order to be validated? YOU want to dictact what God and prophets can and can't do in order to operate within the scope of their roles.
That's been done. And Joseph had his shot. And he blew it. So?
It matters not whether you can produce a claim from Joseph Smith’s own writings that attest his work to be supernatural. I get tired of people saying “never” as if that makes it impossible for something to be true when facts suggest otherwise. Just because Joseph never said something doesn’t mean it didn’t exist! Just look at what he did! Just look at his claims and teachings and you will see that he was a supernatural man who filled the role of seer more than any other modern prophet.
I’m right about this, Harmony. Joseph Smith operated within the realms of a supernatural existence and he communed with God and angels. The revelations of Joseph Smith were given to him in many ways and places. Next to Jesus, he was the greatest man I have ever come to know. He is in the same class as Jesus – standing on the right hand of God.
Paul Osborne wrote:It matters not whether you can produce a claim from Joseph Smith’s own writings that attest his work to be supernatural. I get tired of people saying “never” as if that makes it impossible for something to be true when facts suggest otherwise. Just because Joseph never said something doesn’t mean it didn’t exist! Just look at what he did! Just look at his claims and teachings and you will see that he was a supernatural man who filled the role of seer more than any other modern prophet.
I’m right about this, Harmony. Joseph Smith operated within the realms of a supernatural existence and he communed with God and angels. The revelations of Joseph Smith were given to him in many ways and places. Next to Jesus, he was the greatest man I have ever come to know. He is in the same class as Jesus – standing on the right hand of God.
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Paul O
So... the greatest man you ever knew (how you could know him when he's been dead for 150 years is a question I"m not going to ask here, but I reserve the right to ask it later) was a liar, an adulterer, and frittered away the only gift God ever granted him. You need to expand your circle of acquaintences.
Paul Osborne wrote:It matters not whether you can produce a claim from Joseph Smith’s own writings that attest his work to be supernatural. I get tired of people saying “never” as if that makes it impossible for something to be true when facts suggest otherwise. Just because Joseph never said something doesn’t mean it didn’t exist! Just look at what he did! Just look at his claims and teachings and you will see that he was a supernatural man who filled the role of seer more than any other modern prophet.
I’m right about this, Harmony. Joseph Smith operated within the realms of a supernatural existence and he communed with God and angels. The revelations of Joseph Smith were given to him in many ways and places. Next to Jesus, he was the greatest man I have ever come to know. He is in the same class as Jesus – standing on the right hand of God.
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Paul O
So... the greatest man you ever knew (how you could know him when he's been dead for 150 years is a question I"m not going to ask here, but I reserve the right to ask it later) was a liar, an adulterer, and frittered away the only gift God ever granted him. You need to expand your circle of acquaintences.
Now that I've had another pill, I can still say that I disagree with you. Further, I think that the most supernatural person ever to live was Jesus. Everything about him was supernatural from his birth to his resurrection. When I read about the life and times of Jesus I see how he operated in the most supernatural ways known to man. A lot of people can accept this concept. Thereby, there should be some who can also accept that Joseph Smith was involved in supernatural things as well. So, if you will come out of your comfort box you will find there is much more in the universe than you want to allow. Get out of your little box! Do you think that God and prophets have to do what you say in order to be validated? YOU want to dictact what God and prophets can and can't do in order to operate within the scope of their roles.
It is YOU who are in doubt, not me! You are afraid - I can see that quite clearly. Perhaps you aren't as dumb as I first thought.
Paul O
Paully,
Double that dose next time.
Sorry, but you have nothing that will convince anyone outside of LDS Inc(any many inside) that smith was anymore divine than the next religious crackpot who has claimed to of spoken to god.
Ever heard of Ellen G. White? Martin Luther? Muhammad? Warren Jeffs?
I’ve developed an understanding of who Joseph Smith is based on the knowledge of what has been passed down in all its forms as well as the impressions given me of the Spirit of God. That’s pretty potent stuff. You can’t erase all the teachings given by Joseph Smith as impressions of who that man really is. He left his mark and his heart in the form of writings. These are ways to come to know someone. Can you understand that? Joseph Smith was a person of honor and virtue unlike the two of you. Neither of you can report his history in truth – but will demean him in the same spirit in which the wicked Jews killed the Lord Jesus and thereafter sought the destruction of the Church he organized. Both of you are agents to that same spirit that fueled the Jews who rejected Christ.
I’ve born testimony to hundreds of people over the course of my lifetime about the divine calling of the prophet. Many have heard my testimony and felt that spirit of truth.
Neither of you can separate me from the love of Christ! Both of you are enemies to Jesus and the restoration – but you can’t hurt me anymore than the words that come out of your foul mouths. You seek to tear down and destroy the Lord’s work and in so doing you are only piling up sin on your own heads. You can’t stop the Lord, although you try, it is futile!
I’ve developed an understanding of who Joseph Smith is based on the knowledge of what has been passed down in all its forms as well as the impressions given me of the Spirit of God. That’s pretty potent stuff. You can’t erase all the teachings given by Joseph Smith as impressions of who that man really is. He left his mark and his heart in the form of writings. These are ways to come to know someone. Can you understand that? Joseph Smith was a person of honor and virtue unlike the two of you. Neither of you can report his history in truth – but will demean him in the same spirit in which the wicked Jews killed the Lord Jesus and thereafter sought the destruction of the Church he organized. Both of you are agents to that same spirit that fueled the Jews who rejected Christ.
I’ve born testimony to hundreds of people over the course of my lifetime about the divine calling of the prophet. Many have heard my testimony and felt that spirit of truth.
Neither of you can separate me from the love of Christ! Both of you are enemies to Jesus and the restoration – but you can’t hurt me anymore than the words that come out of your foul mouths. You seek to tear down and destroy the Lord’s work and in so doing you are only piling up sin on your own heads. You can’t stop the Lord, although you try, it is futile!
Paul O
Nobody died and made you prophet, Paul. Your testimony is worth as much as anyone's else's, mine included. That I don't revere Joseph Smith is okay. I don't have to revere any man in order to fulfill my covenants with God. You've consigned me to hell so many times I've lost track, and it's still meaningless. You have no authority. You have no stewardship. And your testimony rings hollow to anyone who knows what Joseph was really like. Secretly marrying other men's wives says a lot about a man. Lying about it from the pulpit and in the newspaper says even more.
Maybe I'm mistaken but I seem to recall something in the scriptures about judging others... something like, as you judge others so shall you be judged. Hmmm..
Or is this one of those scriptures that was just the opinion of Jesus... you know, one of those that is misunderstood and meaningless?
I can't keep it straight.
:-)
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
Blixa wrote:I can't. But I can see where there is a certain kind of consistency to this chain of thought. I've (loosely) followed Paul's arguments at FAIR and MAD and I think they are emphatic in thier consistency. That's not something I've found in many of the "apologetic" arguments, which often seem to me to be an contradictory aggregation of retro-fitted stop gaps, each perhaps making some sense in a local context, but falling apart globally.
This is pretty accurate, from what I've seen. The apologists seem to be able to come up with some kind of explanation for each of the individual problems with the Book of Abraham (occasionally even halfway plausible), but when you take them all together they make quite the paper mache edifice. Kevin Barney's Semitic adaptation theory of the facsimiles is one example. It'd be much more interesting if the missing roll theory wasn't such a piece of trash, but even Barney can't really bring himself to defend the missing roll. And then even if we adopt the missing roll theory we still have to bring in the "scribes did it" theory (which is more absurd still) to explain the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar. And to top it all off, this magnificent conglomerate leaves unexplained Joseph's assertion in the explanation of Facsimile 3 that the characters above the figures' heads say things they don't actually say.