Apologists wasting their talent

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_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

I hope you recover from your mild offense and realize this is a counter-argument I want to make. Coggins asserted that without God there is no meaning; I countered that believing in a specified creative entity (SCE) does not suddenly give meaning. Or if it does, could you please explain the philosophical principle because to me it sounds like a non-sequitur. Additionally, it sounds like you want to involve "rational basis for belief" as a necessary quality for the SCE to have meaning-endowing properties... but how is that so?


The FSM, as a diety substitute, would escape the problem. Mere belief in this proposition does not give you purpose however. The proposition has to be true, which we clearly are not warranted to think. Otherwise the purpose in question is illusionary. This is just a rewritten version of what I already said. If you reply again as though I did not address it, I'm not sure what else there is to say. Horses and water and all that jazz.

Further, I said this to The Nehor:

The Dude wrote:Why does the Universe need a purpose? I don't agree it's even meaningful, nor do I see why anyone must assert it.
The random set of genes in my body are entirely coincidental, of course, as is the geography of the city where I live, and the weather from day to day, yet I feel that I am here for my purpose, which I can just decide for myself. I exist and that is enough to make the Universe purposeful for me.


Yes, you can "just decide" your purpose. And Kurt Wise can "just decide" his. If there is no God that is. Dawkins rejects the latter, and therein lies his irrationality. What you can't do is "just decide" that Kurt Wise should use his faculties in some way you want him to and have this be binding in any rational sense. You can't "just decide" that Kurt Wise and his religion ought to be opposed and held with contempt because it caused him to decide to use his faculties in a way you don't like. Or, put a slightly different way, you have no basis to say it is true that Kurt Wise is using his faculties in a way that ought to be held with contempt. Beckwith, and I, allow Dawkins his subjective feelings, not his pretensions to truth that reveal a self-refuting, irrational belief system. For all the talk of "idiotic sophistry" you sure do miss your mark when you try to outline a criticism of the argument.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The argument seems to be:

1. Human beings can only be said to have a purpose if they are created by a non-human entity that itself has purposes (Have I got that right? Please suggest another short phrasing if you think that is an unfair summary of Beckwith's premise)


An intelligent creator who himself has a purpose and overarching plan regarding his creations is necessary, yes. Even more to the point would be the idea that the universe itself was created for his children, and that the purpose of the universe and of existence is inextricably bound up in that.

But atheists deny that human beings are created by a non-human entity that itself has purposes.

Yes, they do. That's what makes them atheists.


3. Therefore atheists have to admit that they deny that human beings have purposes.


As Dude pointed out, they may very well concoct subjective meaning out of whole cloth to justify their continuing existence and keep existential despair at bay. What they do have to admit is that human beings have no purpose or meaning in any way beyond the meaning they attach to existence within their own subjective mental universe. In other words, existence is meaningless beyond that meaning ascribed to it within my own mental thought world. In this sense, Hugh Hefner can attach meaning to existence: sexual experience and material affluence. The carnal "good life". "Meaning", as Beckwith is using the term, transcends our subjective thought worlds. Its a overarching meaning external to us and imposed upon the universe by its creator. Teleology exists in the universe as a major structural component of it, but this does not preclude each of us from constructing our own, even when it is at variance with the teleology embedded within the universe itself.

4. Therefore an atheist would be incoherent in expressing regret that by making certain life-choices (as, to advocate 'young-earth' creationism) a talented person
has failed to fulfil his or her purpose.


Correct. It doesn't matter by any standard other than Dawkin's own time and culture bound predjudices. Several billion years from now, then the earth is gone, why will it have mattered, in any serious philosophical or ontological sense, whether Wise was a creationist, a scientist, a Nazi, or a wino in the street?


But the argument fails at the first step. Why on earth should we believe in (1) at all? The idea that purpose has to come from a non-human source is a mere assertion without foundation, and in any case leads inevitably to the question of where the non-human entity's purposes come from. You can give an answer to that by saying something like 'My favourite non-human entity is the ultimate source of all purpose', but that is saying no more than the second child in this dialogue:


Cut and thrust. The claim that purpose need not come from a divine creator (human or not), or, indeed, has not come from a creator, is mere assertion as well, and is nothing that flows from scientific data or knowledge. The further question of where the creator's creator came from is, while interesting philosophically tangential to the issue at hand, and using it as a red herring doesn't save you from the fact that general materialist claims are, themselves, nothing more than mere assertion without foundation. Unlike these, however, the Gospel does provide us with a means of certain knowledge on these matters, but that, of course, requires human beings remove their masks of intellectual pretense and self deification and realize that there may be ways of knowing and means of perception than the purely intellectual or scientific.


The whole trick here is to seize hold of a notion (in this case 'purpose' in the sense of potential function) that comes from our fuzzy-edged human world, and insist that it belongs in a special superior world where it is the exclusive property of a 'god' (whatever one of those is). Then we are told that if we deny the existence of that special superior world, we can't have purpose any more. (The same goes for ideas of right and wrong, though that is not the argument here).


Your going around and around the sugar bowl very well chap, but as yet you haven't done a thing to alter the reality that if the universe is purly accidental and random, then human existence is meaningless in any objective or ontological way. We exist because of a incomprehensibly vast fortuitous set of accidents that just happened to have ended with us. It need not have. In this kind of metaphysical conception, meaning is obliterated by blind chance. Not your personal, subjective meaning, but any overarching meaning that could be ascribed to human existence per se, that would elucidate whether or not it is better to be a young earth creationist or a postivistic geologist, or whether it is better to be Mother Teresa or Rudolf Hess.

Getting our feet back on the ground and clearing our mind of the god-talk, it is in fact clear that in normal life we are perfectly happy with the notion that human beings confer purpose on each other:


You're avoiding the issue, as I thought you must. Conferring purpose on each other is a purely subjective mental activity that, despite its psychological effectiveness in negotiating the present world, tells us absolutely nothing regarding any intrinsic, innate, or essential value human existence has beyond one's private mental constructs and conference of such upon others. What this means, of course, is that at Red Giant time, it will not have mattered morally, or in any other sense, that Buchenwald, Auschwitz, and the Great Terror happened any more than that the Civil Rights movement happened or that I was kind to my children or beat and abused them. There are no objective standards beyond the ones we create and ascribe to each other, and therefore, there may be a plethora of moral and ethical systems, many of which may be bent to your suffering and destruction. But neither you nor Dawkins has any moral or philosophical template upon which to base objection to any of them save your own subjective self interest.

t
hus for instance, I have taken immense care over the education and upbringing of my children with the purpose that they should become happy, fulfilled and socially useful adults. And of course in so far as they become autonomous (which is my wish, being fulfilled more and more every day), they will confer purpose upon themselves by the choices they make and the aspirations they form. That is good enough for me,


And all utterly and incomprehensibly meaningless outside of what, as a homo sapien, is your internal mental fantasy world. For the education, fulfillment, and happiness of your children to have meaning, the concepts of fulfillment and happiness must have meaning. However, in a universe in which death ends all meaning for each individual, and in which existence itself is a blind, random stroke of luck, these concepts appear as little more than defense mechanisms against the stark inevitabilities of a cold, harsh, uncaring universe. In other words, fantasies. When religious people speak of meaning, they speak of an intrinsic, innate meaning inherent within the universe itself and conferred upon it by its designer and creator (and without which, an organized, coherent universe wouldn't exist at all). This means that existence has an intrinsic, cosmic worth quite outside of our personal, self constructed mental structures used to negotiate the physical world and psychologically postpone the inevitable collision with nihilism (persona extinction, and the collective extinction of all humanity at some point in the future evolution of the solar system).

What this all means, of course, is that the greatest works of art, philosophy, music, literature, religion and science, along with the deepest loves and dreams, are nothing but epiphenomena of the human cerebral cortex, and when extinguished, will have meant utterly nothing. It will be as if they had never existed at all. My arguent here is really quite simple. One cannot impute meaning to anything that has an absolute end in time. That which will be extinguished and annihilated; which will cease to be and to provide meaning to some conscious entity, is, by definition, meaningless as much now as it will be countless billions of years from now. Meaning is a function of teleology, and teleology is a function of the existence of intelligent beings capable of understanding and enjoying the meaning inherent in purpose.

Creatures created by random chance and bounded by time such that death completely obviates the subjective meaning you make so much of, cannot lay claim to any meaning to their existence in any sense beyond the defensive mask they wear during this life that allows them to get through life without collapsing in the face of the inevitable meeting with utter extinction, not only of physical life, but of their deepest values and bonds.


Purpose is, on this view, merely a human thing - but then, we are merely humans, and I have no problem with that.


This kind of attitude is part and parcel of what is created by many succeeding generations swimming in material affluence, peace, luxury, and leisure. Talk about cultural conditioning, but people like Chap talk about it as if its really deep philosophical reflection that has led them to this point.

No one's fooled on that point except people like Chap and Dawkins.
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_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

Coggins7, you are hopeless. Go away. I'm never going to respond to you again so you may as well ignore me too.



As for ALITD, let's continue:

ALITD wrote:The FSM, as a diety substitute, would escape the problem. Mere belief in this proposition does not give you purpose however. The proposition has to be true, which we clearly are not warranted to think.


What? The proposition (specified creative entity) has to be true for it to give you purpose? That's nonsense, you only have to [i]believe it is true[/i]. This is enough for me anyway, to see that if you believe in a god that can be enough to give you purpose; and if someone believes in a different god, or is fully deluded to believe in something obviously nonsensical like the FSM, that to is enough to give him purpose. It is a subjective purpose and that is the only kind.

What I laid out to Nehor sums up as You can name your own purpose. One is not without purpose if he doesn't believe in SCMs..

Similarly, you can name a purpose for someone else, as you, Dawkins, and I have done for Wise. He should be doing science, not wasting time on young earth creationsm. Together the three of us agree by convention that Wise is wasted, and between the three of us we can discuss if that means all religion is bad or not. You and I part ways with Dawkins at this point....

Of course Wise can say his purpose is something else. It doesn't matter if there are disagreements. We can't expect God to come down and declare a winner on this, and so I don't know what role you expect God to have in all this.

Or, put a slightly different way, you have no basis to say it is true that Kurt Wise is using his faculties in a way that ought to be held with contempt.


Don't be silly. I have just as much basis as you do.

Beckwith, and I, allow Dawkins his subjective feelings, not his pretensions to truth that reveal a self-refuting, irrational belief system.


Get over it. All anybody has about this are subjective feelings; I'm sure Dawkins knows this -- you (and Beckwith, the way you read him) are attacking a strawman.

For all the talk of "idiotic sophistry" you sure do miss your mark when you try to outline a criticism of the argument.


Right back atcha (in regards to what Dawkins really means).
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Coggins7, you are hopeless. Go away. I'm never going to respond to you again so you may as well ignore me too.



I knew you couldn't handle the complexities and depth of a real philosophical discussion Dude, so this comes as no surprise. Tell me, when did you give up on my arguments and propositoins here, the first paragraph or the first syllable?

Out of the kitchen Dude, its getting far to hot for you in here.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

I don't think it is really worth posting a reply longer than a few lines to Coggins' latest lengthy cry of pain.

The problem here seems to be that Coggins can't get his head round the idea that two things can co-exist inside a human mind:

1. The clear knowledge that when we are dead, we are dead and that is the end.
2. A sense of content in continuing to operate, during life and consciousness, with all the normal human vocabulary of meaning and purpose, which for many of us are not all dependent on imaginary entities who Coggins dreams of as the only source of value and meaning.

It seems to make Coggins very uncomfortable that the universe will not care when he is gone. He demands that somewhere, somehow there has to be something more real, more permanent than all this, somehow giving purpose 'from the outside' - though he never explains where the purpose of that outside entity is to come from. Anything else is, for him, a fantasy, a subjective illusion. He is convinced, so far as I can see on the basis of simple repeated assertion, that meaning and purpose must come from somewhere else other than human beings. It makes him very anxious to be told otherwise. He hints that while comfy people like me may be able to live in a godless universe he can't. Well, that is his problem.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

What I laid out to Nehor sums up as You can name your own purpose. One is not without purpose if he doesn't believe in SCMs..

Similarly, you can name a purpose for someone else, as you, Dawkins, and I have done for Wise. He should be doing science, not wasting time on young earth creationsm. Together the three of us agree by convention that Wise is wasted, and between the three of us we can discuss if that means all religion is bad or not. You and I part ways with Dawkins at this point....



Now, go back and try to actually intellectually digest and process what Beckwith is saying, and then come to the table with a relevant criticism. We are not discussing convention, but meaning in an ultimate, intrinsic, essential sense that is valid for the human condition generally, not just within the subjective thought world of each individual, and without that overarching sense of the term "meaning", the individual senses have themselves neither meaning or value beyond the personal cognitive structure that we create, and hence, no intrinsic worth beyond our own bare physical lifespan and the behaviors we engage between birth and death.


Or, put a slightly different way, you have no basis to say it is true that Kurt Wise is using his faculties in a way that ought to be held with contempt.


Don't be silly. I have just as much basis as you do.


In a world of doublethink and intellectual sloppiness, yes you do. In a world where philosophical rigor is demanded of one's beliefs, you do not.


Get over it. All anybody has about this are subjective feelings; I'm sure Dawkins knows this -- you (and Beckwith, the way you read him) are attacking a strawman.


As you are apparently incapable of a logical analysis of Light's argument here, I'm sure it appears this way to you.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I don't think it is really worth posting a reply longer than a few lines to Coggins' latest lengthy cry of pain.

The problem here seems to be that Coggins can't get his head round the idea that two things can co-exist inside a human mind:

1. The clear knowledge that when we are dead, we are dead and that is the end.
2. A sense of content in continuing to operate, during life and consciousness, with all the normal human vocabulary of meaning and purpose, which for many of us are not all dependent on imaginary entities who Coggins dreams of as the only source of value and meaning.

It seems to make Coggins very uncomfortable that the universe will not care when he is gone. He demands that somewhere, somehow there has to be something more real, more permanent than all this, somehow giving purpose 'from the outside' - though he never explains where the purpose of that outside entity is to come from. Anything else is, for him, a fantasy, a subjective illusion. He is convinced, so far as I can see on the basis of simple repeated assertion, that meaning and purpose must come from somewhere else other than human beings. It makes him very anxious to be told otherwise. He hints that while comfy people like me may be able to live in a godless universe he can't. Well, that is his problem.



My initial response to this is, again, to plead with chap for something of intellectual substance, at least enough to provide some evidence that he has read and understood Beckwith, Light, and myself here. I still don't see that he has done that, but I will respond in a civil manner to the bulk of his post.


The problem here seems to be that Coggins can't get his head round the idea that two things can co-exist inside a human mind:

1. The clear knowledge that when we are dead, we are dead and that is the end.
2. A sense of content in continuing to operate, during life and consciousness, with all the normal human vocabulary of meaning and purpose, which for many of us are not all dependent on imaginary entities who Coggins dreams of as the only source of value and meaning.



Yet again, we see that chap cannot, or will not, grasp the horns of the philosophical dilemma and wrestle with it. Point one begs numerous questions. Point two begs yet again, the very questions Beckwith points toward in elucidating the logical problems with the materialist position. Chap apparently feels that bare assertion of his own psychological attitudes toward these questions is enough to settle them. Beckwith would prefer to explore them with philosophical depth and show why he believes as he does, thereby opening the gate for others who disagree to show why they disagree, through rational argument. When will chap come to the table with the requisite tools?

It seems to make Coggins very uncomfortable that the universe will not care when he is gone. He demands that somewhere, somehow there has to be something more real, more permanent than all this, somehow giving purpose 'from the outside' - though he never explains where the purpose of that outside entity is to come from. Anything else is, for him, a fantasy, a subjective illusion. He is convinced, so far as I can see on the basis of simple repeated assertion, that meaning and purpose must come from somewhere else other than human beings. It makes him very anxious to be told otherwise. He hints that while comfy people like me may be able to live in a godless universe he can't. Well, that is his problem.
[/quote]


Beyond your psychologizing, you continue to beg questions and avoid a detailed rational response to my points. As to fantasy, this was nothing more than a further development of your own position.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

A Light in the Darkness wrote:
2) Dawkins is using Wise as a worst-case scenario to show what religion can do to otherwise talented people.


He's using Wise as an example of why religion in general is worthy of opposition. This is as sensical of me pointing to Linus Pauling wasting his later years lauding the miracles of Vitamin C as an example of why scientific thinking is worthy of opposition. And mind you, I could've picked one of any thousands upon thousands of examples of scientists spending their time believing in bad ideas in preference of good ones. Dawkins uses fundamentalism as his avatar for religion because it is an easy target he can handle. He knows how to confront Ted Haggard in a parking lot. Alvin Plantinga in a refereed journal? Not so much. My parenthetical comment would've been just as apt if someone said science is worthy of opposition because pursuit of scientific thinking caused Franz Joseph Gall to waste his considerable talent on phrenology.


Actually, you are wrong. Dawkins is using this as an example to demonstrate why "I am hostile to fundamentalist religion." His rationale for this hostility is that "it actively debauches the scientific enterprise, . . . teaches us not to change our minds, and not want to know exciting things that are available to be known."

I find this to be a reasonably accurate, in my experience, generalization of fundamentalist religion, in which case, the example he chooses appears appropriately chosen. A bit extreme, perhaps, but a clear-cut example is useful in this context to demonstrate the point.

More, I find this a reasonably accurate generalization of dogmatist belief as a whole (whether religious, political, or some other form of dogmatic ideology). I am interested in whatever counter-argument you may want to make that fundamentalist belief tends, rather, to make one open to the receipt of new ideas as opposed to closed to them.

You appear to be arguing that Dawkins uses the term "fundamentalism" as code word for religion in general. Perhaps that is so; I only just started his book, so I cannot comment on this. But within the context of his argument, as he himself frames it, you appear to have overstated your argument. Perhaps it is you is creating the strawman?

As to whether it is a waste for someone to devote his/her life to defending the proposition that the earth is 6,000 years old, or that God, in a snit, killed off all humanity, save for a handful, who he preserved on a wooden ark, along with two of every animal (and I presume insect) species on earth, then I guess I come down on the side of "probably." I guess it depends on what the opportunity cost is. For someone like Jerry Falwell, that was probably his true genius, so it was not really a waste in this sense. For this Wise guy, given what he might have accomplished in science, then it probably was a bit of a waste.

But then this is only in the abstract. It's their life, so I don't worry much about it; I am happy to let them choose what to do with it.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I find this to be a reasonably accurate, in my experience, generalization of fundamentalist religion, in which case, the example he chooses appears appropriately chosen. A bit extreme, perhaps, but a clear-cut example is useful in this context to demonstrate the point.



But only a relatively small subset of Christians are fundamentalist in belief, which means that Liight's conceptualization of fundamentalism as a convenient strawman is essentially accurate.


More, I find this a reasonably accurate generalization of dogmatist belief as a whole (whether religious, political, or some other form of dogmatic ideology). I am interested in whatever counter-argument you may want to make that fundamentalist belief tends, rather, to make one open to the receipt of new ideas as opposed to closed to them.


Which then, would apply to Dawkin's dogmatic scientism and Darwinian fundamentalism.


You appear to be arguing that Dawkins uses the term "fundamentalism" as code word for religion in general. Perhaps that is so; I only just started his book, so I cannot comment on this. But within the context of his argument, as he himself frames it, you appear to have overstated your argument. Perhaps it is you is creating the strawman?


No. This is a long standing tactic of critics of even the most intellectually serious and qualified Intelligent Design theorists, including those who are clearly nonbelievers in the Christian sense. To use fundamentalism as a stick to beat religion qua religion has a long history, and comes up frequently on the front lines of the culture wars.

As to whether it is a waste for someone to devote his/her life to defending the proposition that the earth is 6,000 years old, or that God, in a snit, killed off all humanity, save for a handful, who he preserved on a wooden ark, along with two of every animal (and I presume insect) species on earth, then I guess I come down on the side of "probably." I guess it depends on what the opportunity cost is. For someone like Jerry Falwell, that was probably his true genius, so it was not really a waste in this sense. For this Wise guy, given what he might have accomplished in science, then it probably was a bit of a waste.



And again, you beg the question. If the universe is an accident, and all consciousness ends with death, what is the relevance of the concept of "waste of time" or "truth" or "falsehood", even if we can know them with certainty?

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Post by _guy sajer »

Coggins7 wrote:
I find this to be a reasonably accurate, in my experience, generalization of fundamentalist religion, in which case, the example he chooses appears appropriately chosen. A bit extreme, perhaps, but a clear-cut example is useful in this context to demonstrate the point.



But only a relatively small subset of Christians are fundamentalist in belief, which means that Liight's conceptualization of fundamentalism as a convenient strawman is essentially accurate.


Perhaps, but they are also among the most influential, at least in this country, so they are certainly relevant.

But then, your argument doesn't follow. If Dawkins is indeed directing his critique at this group, and not using them as a proxy for all believers as claimed (and this is, I supposed, debatable), then his argument is limited to them only. In like manner, were I to argue that "MAD Moplogists tend toward closed-minded dogmatism," but MAD Mopologists constitute only a small % of Mopologists as a group, I don't see how it follows, therefore, that I am arguing that all Mopologists tend toward closed-minded dogmatism.


Coggins7 wrote:
More, I find this a reasonably accurate generalization of dogmatist belief as a whole (whether religious, political, or some other form of dogmatic ideology). I am interested in whatever counter-argument you may want to make that fundamentalist belief tends, rather, to make one open to the receipt of new ideas as opposed to closed to them.


Which then, would apply to Dawkin's dogmatic scientism and Darwinian fundamentalism.


Dawkins may or may not be "extreme" in some senses (I haven't read enough of him to form an opinion yet), but I dispute the premise that "science" or "Darwinism" are "fundamentalist." They may have dogmatic believers, but the theories method and theories that result therefrom are hardly "fundamentalist:" rather they are the exact opposite. Evolution is a much tested theory with scads of empirical evidence supporting it, which is more than can be said for, say, creationism.


Coggins7 wrote:
You appear to be arguing that Dawkins uses the term "fundamentalism" as code word for religion in general. Perhaps that is so; I only just started his book, so I cannot comment on this. But within the context of his argument, as he himself frames it, you appear to have overstated your argument. Perhaps it is you is creating the strawman?

No. This is a long standing tactic of critics of even the most intellectually serious and qualified Intelligent Design theorists, including those who are clearly nonbelievers in the Christian sense. To use fundamentalism as a stick to beat religion qua religion has a long history, and comes up frequently on the front lines of the culture wars.


Perhaps, but this goes beyond the narrow comment I was making. Using extreme examples as strawmen to depict the norm is a tactic employed by just about everyone, regardless of persuasion.

I'm curious; what is the specific empirical evidence for creationism and in what scientific journals has it been published?

Coggins7 wrote:
As to whether it is a waste for someone to devote his/her life to defending the proposition that the earth is 6,000 years old, or that God, in a snit, killed off all humanity, save for a handful, who he preserved on a wooden ark, along with two of every animal (and I presume insect) species on earth, then I guess I come down on the side of "probably." I guess it depends on what the opportunity cost is. For someone like Jerry Falwell, that was probably his true genius, so it was not really a waste in this sense. For this Wise guy, given what he might have accomplished in science, then it probably was a bit of a waste.


And again, you beg the question. If the universe is an accident, and all consciousness ends with death, what is the relevance of the concept of "waste of time" or "truth" or "falsehood", even if we can know them with certainty?


I think the Dude answered this well enough.

Suffice to say that I disagree with the implied premise that for something to mean something, it must have some cosmic purpose.

Man, do I hate dealing with all this quote formating. Isn't there an easier way to do it?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
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