Did Joseph Smith have sex with other men's wives?

[_Jersey Girl]

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to prove his fathering a child with DNA?

Whoa! Ya stepped right in it, monkey's! Thanks! ;-) There's DNA testing being done and so far no confirmation on positive paternity on the part of Joseph Smith.

[_The Dude]

This list of evidences is not exhaustive, but should be sufficient to convince a reasonable and open-minded person that Joseph Smith had sex with at least a significant proportion of his polyandrous wives, if not almost all of them.

Bam!

Another awesome list from Don Bradley. He is so not an apologist.

[_Jersey Girl]

monkey's,

I asked about this on RFM the other day and a poster offered a link when I asked where the children were from the marriages. I'd seen the link prior and what it shows is DNA testing on only 2 children...negative paternity results for Joseph Smith.

Anyway, my point is that folks need to be careful about how they utilize evidence such as that.

[_barrelomonkeys]

monkey's,

I asked about this on RFM the other day and a poster offered a link when I asked where the children were from the marriages. I'd seen the link prior and what it shows is DNA testing on only 2 children...negative paternity results for Joseph Smith.

Anway, my point is that folks need to be careful about how they utilize evidences like that.

Well he was not impotent and it seems to me if there are no children from his other "unions" there really is no slam dunk.

[_Jersey Girl]

monkey's,

I asked about this on RFM the other day and a poster offered a link when I asked where the children were from the marriages. I'd seen the link prior and what it shows is DNA testing on only 2 children...negative paternity results for Joseph Smith.

Anway, my point is that folks need to be careful about how they utilize evidences like that.

Well he was obviously fertile and it seems to me if there are no children from his other "unions" there really is no slam dunk.

I think the evidence when pieced together is compelling...but it's not "proof". Well, I guess that depends on how you apply the word "proof".

[_DonBradley]

Bam!

Another awesome list from Don Bradley. He is so not an apologist.

What??! Are you sure we're talking about the same Don Bradley? <fiendish grin>

Thanks for noticing! I was afraid they were about to induct me into FARMS!

Don

[_Jersey Girl]

Bam!

Another awesome list from Don Bradley. He is so not an apologist.

What??! Are you sure we're talking about the same Don Bradley? <fiendish grin>

Thanks for noticing! I was afraid they were about to induct me into FARMS!

Don

That was a little more than bizarre, wasn't it? Sheesh!

Jersey Girl

[_Seven]

Well not really. This is one area where there is scant if any evidence that Smith had sexual relations with the polyandorous wives. And in fact the husbands did know about the marriages in many cases. One case though, Zina Jacobs, was Joseph's polyandrous wife. Henry Jacobs consented. Later, afer Joseph Smith's death BY took her to wife. BY stood in for Joseph Smith and Zina was sealed to Smith but marrried to BY for time. Odd that Henry stood there at the Nauvoo temple when this tool place and witnessed it all. While she never had an official divorce from Henry I believe she eventually considered herself divorced from Henry and she did have a child by him.

Anyway, there is plenty of evidence that the polyandrous marriges were for dyastic purposed but little that there were sexual relations.

You are correct that some of the husbands were aware of the marriages and handed their wives to Joseph as commanded by him. Henry Jacobs was quoted once as calling Joseph Smith "our God." It's not surprising that he stood there in the Nauvoo temple as a witness. These church members who gave their wives to Joseph were fanatical in their beliefs and devotion to Joseph Smith. I think you should read more about Henry Jacobs. Marriages outside the New and Everlasting covenant were no longer considered valid. There was a statement I can't find at the moment of all contracts/marriages being done away with after 132 was revealed.

I will give you a few words of Doctrine,... Br Watt will write it, but it is not my intention to have it published; therefore pay good attention, and store it up in your memories.... Can a woman be freed from a man to whome [sic] she is sealed? Yes, but a bill of divorcement does not free her.... How can a woman be made free from a man to whome she has been sealed for time and all eternity? There are two ways.... The second way in which a wife can be seperated [sic] from her husband, while he continues to be faithful to his God and his priesthood, I have not revealed, except to a few persons in this Church, and a few have received it from Joseph the prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the preisthood [sic] with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is. In either of these ways of seperation, you can discover, there is no need for a bill of divorcement. To recapitulate. First if a man forfiets [sic] his covenants with a wife, or wives, becoming unfaithful to his God, and his priesthood, that wife or wives are free from him without a bill of divorcement. Second. If a woman claims protection at the hands of a man, possessing more power in the preisthood and higher keys, if he is disposed to rescue her and has obtained the consent of her husband to make her his wife he can do so without a bill of divorcement.
("A few words of Doctrine," a speech given by President Brigham Young in the Tabernacle on Oct. 8, 1861; photocopy of a document in the Mormon Church Historical Department, Brigham Young Addresses, Ms/d/1243/Bx 49/fd 8)

"When the family organization was revealed from heaven—the patriarchal order of God, and Joseph began, on the right and the left, to add to his family, what a quaking there was in Israel. Says one brother to another, "Joseph says all covenants [previous marriages] are done away, and none are binding but the new covenants [marriage by priesthood sealing power]; now suppose Joseph should come and say he wanted your wife, what would you say to that?" "I would tell him to go to hell." This was the spirit of many in the early days of this Church. . . .What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when Joseph asked him for his money? [he would give it all willingly] Or if he came and said, "I want your wife?" "O yes," he would say, "here she is, there are plenty more" . . . Did the Prophet Joseph want every man's wife he asked for? He did not . . . the grand object in view was to try the people of God, to see what was in them. If such a man of God should come to me and say, "I want your gold and silver, or your wives," I should say, "Here they are, I wish I had more to give you, take all I have got." A man who has got the Spirit of God, and the light of eternity in him, has no trouble about such matters."[/- Apostle Jedediah M. Grant, second counselor to Brigham Young and father of President Heber J. Grant, sermon delivered on 19 February 1854 (JD 2: 13-14)

Jason, I believe you are ignoring the evidence to suggest that there is little proof of sexual relations or you haven't read enough on the polyandrous wives. Look at the heart wrenching stories of the men who knew of the proposals and how sickened they were. Heber C. Kimball wouldn't have fasted and prayed for three days about giving Vilate to Joseph if sexual relations were not a part of the marriage. There were some husbands that were not aware of the marriages. If these were dynastic, there wouldn't be a need for secrecy. The writings of the men and women suggest that this was an incredible sacrifice asked of them. Why would that be if it was only dynastic?

I won't post the entire history of Zina here, but you should read about her story in the book "In Sacred Loneliness."
Henry Jacobs had stated that he wished his wife was not so beautiful. She was pursued by Joseph before her marriage to Henry Jacobs but chose Henry over him. After they wed, Joseph became more aggressive in his attempts to coerce this devout Mormon away from her husband.

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/Joseph ... _wives.htm

Henry Jacob's Wife, Zina
Prescindia's twenty-year-old sister Zina was living in the Joseph Smith home when Elder Henry B. Jacobs married her in March 1841. According to family records, when Zina and Henry asked Joseph Smith why he had not honored them by performing their marriage, Smith replied that "the Lord had made it known to him that [Zina] was to be his Celestial wife." Believing that "whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God's authorities bend to the reasoning of any man," the devout Elder Jacobs consented for six-months-pregnant Zina to be sealed to Joseph Smith 27 October 1841. Some have suggested that the Jacobs's marriage was "unhappy" and that the couple had separated before her sealing to Joseph Smith. But, though sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity, Zina continued her connubial relationship with her husband Henry Jacobs. On 2 February 1846, pregnant with Henry's second son, Zina was re-sealed by proxy to the murdered Joseph Smith and in that same session was “sealed for time" to Brigham Young. Faithful Henry B. Jacobs stood by as an official witness to both ceremonies.
("History of Henry Bailey Jacobs." By Ora J. Cannon, page 5-7. also see "Recollections of Zina D. Young" by Mary Brown Firmage)

Zina and Henry lived together as husband and wife until the Mormon pioneers reached Mt. Pisgah, Iowa. At this temporary stop on the pioneer trail, Brigham Young announced that "it was time for men who were walking in other men's shoes to step out of them. Brother Jacobs, the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit" (Hall 1853, 43-44). President Young then called Jacobs on a mission to England. Witnesses to his departure commented that he was so emotionally ill they had to "put him on a blanket and carry him to the boat to get him on his way".
("Short Sketch of the Life of Henry B. Jacobs" By Ora J. Cannon)

Henry returned from his mission and settled in California. But he was still in love with his wife Zina, now a plural wife of Brigham Young. Henry's letters to his wife Zina were heartrending. On 2 September 1852 he wrote: "O how happy I should be if I only could see you and the little children, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh." "I am unhappy," Henry lamented, "there is no peace for poor me, my pleasure is you, my comfort has vanished.... O Zina, can I ever, will I ever get you again, answer the question please." In an undated Valentine he added:

Zina my mind never will change from Worlds without Ends, no never, the same affection is there and never can be moved I do not murmur nor complain of the handlings of God no verily, no but I feel alone and no one to speak to, to call my own. I feel like a lamb without a mother, I do not blame any person or persons, no--May the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham and all purtains unto him forever. Tell him for me I have no feelings against him nor never had, all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our god Joseph [Smith]." ("Short Sketch of the Life of Henry B. Jacobs" By Ora J. Cannon)

If you look at the story of Heber C. Kimball, he was also tested by Joseph in asking for his wife. He was more fortunate than Henry Jacobs however, because Joseph was only testing his loyalty and didn't really want Vilate.

Heber C. Kimball's Wife, Vilate
“During the summer of 1841, shortly after Heber's return from England, he was introduced to the doctrine of plural marriage directly through a startling test-a sacrifice which shook his very being and challenged his faith to the ultimate. He had already sacrificed homes, possessions, friends, relatives, all worldly rewards, peace, and tranquility for the Restoration. Nothing was left to place on the altar save his life, his children, and his wife. Joseph demanded for himself what to Heber was the unthinkable, his Vilate. Totally crushed spiritually and emotionally, Heber touched neither food nor water for three days and three nights and continually sought confirmation and comfort from God." Finally, after "some kind of assurance," Heber took Vilate to the upper room of Joseph's store on Water Street. The Prophet wept at this act of faith, devotion, and obedience. Joseph had never intended to take Vilate. It was all a test."
- Biography of Heber C. Kimball, "Heber C. Kimball, Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer." By Stanley B. Kimball, page 93.

For those that believe there is little to no evidence of sexual relations, then please explain to me why these men had so much heartache to the point of fasting for three days over the "test"? Why did the women feel the polyandrous proposals were immoral and why did they need a story of an angel with flaming sword to convince them?

There are several women who stated that their virtue and reputations would be lost when their families learned of the rmarriages. Why would that be if it was only dynastic?

[_Pokatator]

Sex or no sex doesn't matter to me, just the fact that he married already married females is disjusting enough. It is all an abomination.

[_Blixa]

I don't know if its been mentioned before, but Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages seem much more various than what the practice (d)evolved into in Utah. To my mind, he seems to have had a number of different reasons for the marriages he made: some seem like "complete with sex" marriages, some don't, some seem like "sharing," some seem exclusive, some seem to be based on "affection," some on "political" alliance-building, etc.

My opinion is that, as with everything, Joseph Smith made it up, or to be more generous, developed it as it went along. I also wonder if it was another case of something taking on a life of its own outside of his intentions; in other words, that at the begining Joseph Smith might not have forseen it becoming as public, and creating as much of a stir as it did. By "another case" of something developing along unforseen lines, I mean the religion itself. I'm not sure the golden plates were originally conceived of as the means of starting a religious organization (or if they were, it was a different religion that what later transpired).