Did Joseph Smith have sex with other men's wives?

[Tator]

Well he was not impotent and it seems to me if there are no children from his other "unions" there really is no slam dunk.

These were furtive, hidden relationships, not relationships in which regular sex was occurring. It is not uncommon at all for these sort of relationships NOT to result in conception.

When the RLDS church was formed, partly in protest of polygamy, its leaders originally denied Joseph Smith ever practiced polygamy and pinned the practice on BY. In response, the LDS church gathered affidavits and interviewed Joseph Smith" still living wives. Those responses left little doubt that not only did Joseph Smith marry these women, but had sexual relations with many. Of course they did not use the words "intercourse", but instead used words such as "in very deed".

Moreover, Brigham Young and other church members who practiced polygamy had been taught what polygamy meant from Joseph himself. They all understood it was a real marriage, that included sexual intimacy and hopefully children.

I can't think of one logical reason to think that, particularly with the "revelation" that Joseph Smith used to justify polygamy which expressed stated it was for the purpose of raising seeds, Joseph Smith did not have sexual relationships in his polygamous marriages.

There are only a few marriages in which it is speculated sexual relations may not have occurred, and that is his marriages with much-older women, or, perhaps, the younger Helen Mar. The older women were likely post-menopausal, and Helen Mar was so young at their marriage she may not have been sexually mature.

I also am under the impression that the DNA research has not been completed. But, as I said, even if he did not impregnate any of these women, would that be a surprise? He wasn't living with them. He was constantly trying to find ways to meet with them without Emma's knowledge. On top of that, he was juggling a LOT of wives. I would imagine that sexual contact with any one wife in particular, other than Emma with whom he lived, was likely very infrequent.

This page discusses these sort of evidences:

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm

Note in particular these statements:

Compton writes:
"Because of claims by Reorganized Latter-day Saints that Joseph was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Joseph's wives) affirmed repeatedly that Joseph had physical sexual relations with his plural wives-despite the Victorian conventions in nineteenth-century American religion which otherwise would have prevented mention of sexual relations in marriage."

- Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed." (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)

- In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)

- Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

In total, 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him.

- Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)

- Smith's secretary William Clayton also recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F." (Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that."" (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)

[_Runtu]

Here's an excerpt from "In Sacred Loneliness" (note to beastie that Emily Partridge uses the term "carnal intercourse," so they weren't all as reluctant to be explicit:

Sexuality in Joseph Smith's Plural Marriages

Joseph Smith's first wife, Emma, allegedly told the wife of Apostle George A. Smith, Lucy, that Joseph Smith's plural wives were "celestial" only, that he had no earthly marital relations with them. "They were only sealed for eternity they were not to live with him and have children." Lucy later wrote that when she told this to her husband:

He related to me the circumstance of his calling on Joseph late one evening and he was just taking a wash and Joseph told him that one of his wives had just been confined and Emma was the Midwife and he had been assisting her. He [George A. Smith] told me [Lucy Smith] this to prove to me that the women were married for time [as well as for eternity], as Emma had told me that Joseph never taught any such thing.

Because Reorganized Latter Day Saints claimed that Joseph Smith was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Smith's wives) affirmed repeatedly that he had physical sexual relations with them—despite the Victorian conventions in nineteenth-century American culture which ordinarily would have prevented any mention of sexuality.

For instance, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated that she knew of children born to Smith's plural wives: "I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." Melissa Lott Willes testified that she had been Smith's wife "in very deed." Emily Partridge Young said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him, and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.

Other early witnesses also affirmed this. Benjamin Johnson wrote "On the 15th of May ... the Prophet again Came and at my hosue [house] ocupied the Same Room & Bed with my Sister that the month previous he had ocupied with the Daughter of the Later Bishop Partridge as his wife." According to Joseph Bates Noble, Smith told him he had spent a night with Louisa Beaman.

When Angus Cannon, a Salt Lake City stake president, visited Joseph Smith III in 1905, the RLDS president asked rhetorically if these women were his father's wives, then "how was it that there was no issue from them." Cannon replied:

All I knew was that which Lucy Walker herself contends. They were so nervous and lived in such constant fear that they could not conceive. He made light of my reply. He said, "I am informed that Eliza Snow was a virgin at the time of her death." I in turn said, "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked her the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, 'I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that.'"

Cannon then mentioned that Sylvia Sessions Lyon, a plural wife of Smith, had had a child by him, Josephine Lyon Fisher. Josephine left an affidavit stating that her mother, Sylvia, when on her deathbed, told her that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. In addition, posterity (i.e., sexuality) was an important theological element in Smith's Abrahamic-promise justification for polygamy.

Since there is a great deal of evidence that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his wives, one wonders why he did not have more polygamous children. However, some of his children apparently grew up under other names, as Mary Lightner suggested. Furthermore, he may not have had numerous posterity because he was not able to visit his wives regularly, both because he was often hiding from the law and because Emma, his first wife, watched him carefully. In addition, polygamy was illegal. On top of these pressures, he soon had many wives, which made it more difficult to visit all of them frequently and regularly. Since polygamists generally had favorite wives, Smith probably neglected some of his. Finally, some of his wives were married to other men in polyandrous relationships, so such wives would probably have had children by their "first husbands," with whom they were cohabiting regularly, not by Joseph. All of these factors would have combined to limit the number of his children. However, it is clear that some of his plural wives did have children by him, if we can rely on the statements of George A. Smith, Josephine Fisher, and Elizabeth Lightner.

Despite this evidence, some have argued that Joseph did not have marital relations with his wives, using the following arguments: First, some conclude that Helen Mar Kimball, who married Smith when she was fourteen, did not have marital relations with him. This is possible, as there are cases of Mormons in Utah marrying young girls and refraining from sexuality until they were older. But the evidence for Helen Mar is entirely ambiguous, in my view.

Some, like Emma Smith, conclude that Joseph's marriages were for eternity only, not for time (thus without earthly sexuality). But many of Joseph's wives affirmed that they were married to him for eternity and time, with sexuality included. Eliza Snow, in her autobiography, wrote that "I was sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for time and eternity, in accordance with the Celestial Law of Marriage which God has revealed." Furthermore, there are no known instances of marriages for "eternity only" in the nineteenth century.

Some have pointed out that Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner said in 1905, "I ... was sealed to Joseph for Eternity." Thus, they argue, Smith had no relations with her, a polyandrous wife, as he was married to her for eternity only. However, Lightner apparently was merely emphasizing eternity in this statement; she testified in three different places that she was also sealed to Smith for time. For example, in a 1902 statement, she said, "Brigham Young Sealed me to him [Smith], for time & all eternity."

Zina Huntington Young also had a polyandrous relationship with Smith and her first husband, Henry Jacobs. Some point out that she gave an interview in which she referred to her marriage to Smith as "eternal," not for "time." However, in the same interview she emphasized that she was married to the Mormon leader for time, as well:

[Zina:] ... he [Joseph Smith] married me ... When Brigham Young returned from England, he repeated the ceremony for time and eternity. ... I was sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity.

[Question:] Mrs. Young, you claim, I believe, that you were not married to him "for time?"

[Zina:] "For eternity." I was married to Mr. Jacobs, but the marriage was unhappy and we parted ...

[Q:] Is it a fact then, Mrs. Young, that Joseph was not married to you only in the sense of being sealed "for eternity?"

[Zina:] As his wife for time and eternity.

[Q:] Mrs. Young, you have answered that question in two ways; for time, and for time and eternity.

[Zina:] I meant for eternity.

Some interpreters place great weight on these statements, as showing that Zina's marriage was "spiritual" only. But the interview is so contradictory on this issue, as the elderly Zina sounds defensive and confused while answering an RLDS judge's harsh questions, that it cannot be used as solid evidence. One even wonders if early Mormons did not use the term "marriage for eternity" to encompass "time and eternity," as Mormons do today.

In conclusion, though it is possible that Joseph had some marriages in which there were no sexual relations, there is not any explicit or convincing evidence for this (except, perhaps, in the cases of the older wives, judging from later Mormon polygamy). And in a significant number of marriages, there is evidence for sexual relations.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sylvia Sessions would not have questioned the paternity of her daughter if there were no reason to question it.

I did not realoze Sylvia was a polyandrous wife. Was she?

That describes Zina Jacobs, but what about Nancy Marinda Hyde or Sarah Pratt, who were approached shortly after Joseph sent their husbands away on long missions?

There is nothing to indicate that had these women consented to a polyandrous relationships that the husbands consents would not be obtained. If I recall correctly in other cases the husbands were aware. But even were so, this does not indicate sex.

by the way, let me here note that I think Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his other "regular" plural wive's. And he may well have with the polyandrous as well. I am just not aware of evidence and all of what you use is speculative and subjective.

If there were no sex involved, Sylvia Sessions' statements are nonsensical.

If Sessions was a polyandrous wife then this is the only evidence of sex that I am aware of.

If there were no sex involved, why hide the marriages from Emma and the women's husbands?

I think that is is much more complex then jus sex.

If the revelation explicitly states the purpose of these unions, why would Joseph Smith have expressly violated that purpose by not having sex?

As noted I think sex was the morm in his plural marriages. But I just think evidence is lacking for the polyandrous ones.

[_Jason Bourne]

Look closely at D&C 132:41

And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

Why the escape clause?

Hmmmmm..... I always read this to be about a woman committing adultery. Being with another that was not her hubby. But the another man not appointed unto her....... wow!!

[_beastie]

Jason,

That "escape clause" escaped MY attention until someone else pointed it out as well. Yes, it is definitely a "wow"!

Sylvia was already married to a devout Mormon, Windsor Lyons, when she married Joseph Smith. His awareness of or reaction to the polyandrous union is unknown.

This is another odd case because Joseph Smith also married her already-married mother, as well, Patty Sessions. However, there isn't any good evidence that his marriage to Patty, or the other older wives he married, included sex. Compton points out that when men married older women later in Utah, normally sex was not involved, either.

[cacheman]

Sylvia Sessions would not have questioned the paternity of her daughter if there were no reason to question it.

I did not realoze Sylvia was a polyandrous wife. Was she?

From wivesofjosephsmith.org:

Sylvia Sessions left Maine for Zion (Missouri) with her parents, Patty and David, in June of 1837. While in Missouri, Sylvia met and married Windsor Lyon. Sylvia’s Mother, Patty, wrote about the wedding in her journal, “Sylvia was married to Windsor P. Lyon, Joseph Smith performed the ceremony...The next day the Prophet was there and a good time it was.”

Sylvia, and husband Windsor, left Missouri for Nauvoo in February of 1839. There, Windsor established a mercantile business, selling “Dry Goods, Groceries, Crockery, Glass, and Hardware, Drugs, and Medicines, Paints and Dry Stuffs.” By this time, they were the parents of two children.

Sylvia married Joseph Smith on February 8, 1842, when she was 23 years old. It is uncertain if her husband, Windsor, was aware of the marriage, but she did continue to live with him. Brigham Young taught that “if the woman preferred a man higher in authority, and he is willing to take her and her husband gives her up-there is no Bill of divorce required...it is right in the sight of God”. Brigham also explained that the woman, “...would be in a higher glory”. This may help shed light on Sylvia’s complex marriage arrangement.

10 months later, on December 24th, Joseph’s journal mentions a visit to his wife, Sylvia, who was giving birth to her third child: “Walked with Sec[retary Willard Richards] to see Sister Lyons who was sick. Her baby died 30 minutes before [we] arrived”. Sylvia had lost two of her three children in death. On September 18, 1843, another of Joseph’s visits to Sylvia is recorded by William Clayton, “Joseph and I rode out to borrow money, drank wine at Sister Lyons P.M. I got $50 of Sister Lyons and paid it to D.D. Yearsly.”

On January 27, 1844 her only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”.

There is nothing to indicate that had these women consented to a polyandrous relationships that the husbands consents would not be obtained. If I recall correctly in other cases the husbands were aware. But even were so, this does not indicate sex.

You seemed to be suggesting that the husband's consent was always obtained. In the two cases I mentioned, clearly consent was not obtained. Both Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt were devastated when they returned to find their wives had been married to Joseph Smith (edit: Sarah Pratt rejected Joseph's proposal). Orson Pratt lost his standing in the quorum of the twelve over this issue.

by the way, let me here note that I think Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his other "regular" plural wive's. And he may well have with the polyandrous as well. I am just not aware of evidence and all of what you use is speculative and subjective.

Sure, it's speculative, but probably less speculative than suggesting that he didn't have sex with his wives.

If Sessions was a polyandrous wife then this is the only evidence of sex that I am aware of.

I agree that it is the most solid evidence. So, if he had sex with one of his polyandrous wives, why would we expect that he didn't with the others?

I think that is is much more complex then jus sex.

Maybe so, but the women involved all talk of the extreme secrecy and thoughts of being ruined on discovery. To me, that suggests something more than dynastic sealings.

As noted I think sex was the morm in his plural marriages. But I just think evidence is lacking for the polyandrous ones.

Yet you concede the evidence is there for Sylvia Sessions.

[_beastie]

runtu,

I don't think Jason realized Sylvia was already married, and that was why he accepted that evidence but questioned the evidence for sexual polyandry in specific.

[_Jason Bourne]

This list of evidences is not exhaustive, but should be sufficient to convince a reasonable and open-minded person that Joseph Smith had sex with at least a significant proportion of his polyandrous wives, if not almost all of them.

Bam!

Another awesome list from Don Bradley. He is so not an apologist.

Ok. I think it more probable.

[Guest]

Beastie, If I had to make an educated guess I would say, from the evidence that points to him having sexual relations, that he did have sex with some of his wives. I was merely stating that unless the DNA evidence supports the argument there is no certainty. As I wrote that last night I was thinking about Thomas Jefferson and his liaisons with his slaves. To me it's essentially the same.

To me it doesn't really matter if he had sex with these women or not. I find that his behavior was harmful to those that carried on the tradition and the practice that he started perpetrates grave abuses today of women, children, and young men in polygamous communities that still live under the guidelines of Joseph Smith.

[_Runtu]

runtu,

I don't think Jason realized Sylvia was already married, and that was why he accepted that evidence but questioned the evidence for sexual polyandry in specific.

That was my impression. The evidence is there, and Sylvia was a polyandrous wife. It seems pretty clear to me.

And I'm not trying to argue with Jason, whom I have always respected for his evenhanded approach to things. I just thought he wasn't aware of some of the evidence.