The Many Faces of Ray A

[_Ray A]

"Not subject to spiritual slavery"??? Wow, Ray, wow.... the "FARMS intellectual thug"? Did DCP forgive you for all those things in this mysterious e-correspondence the two of you have kept going for the past couple years or so? Please, do tell!

Actually, yes he did, Scatch. You see, unlike you he's a person of integrity and doesn't hold on to old grudges. We actually discussed this in person when we met, and his wife was also in this conversation. You'll be shocked to learn she's a human being who has feelings, and is aware of all the things being said about him, and sometimes her, by some exmos who have no spine. I think if some of DCP's critics met him they would shrink in shame at some of the things they've written.

All of these quotes you're bringing up some four years later are totally irrelevant. I'm sure intelligent people can see that (probably asking too much here, so I'm talking to intelligent lurkers). It reminds me of two Australian prime ministers, Bob Hawke and Malcolm Fraser, who when in office as opponents said the most unkind things about each other for years on end. When they both retired they became good friends, and spoke well of each other, highlighting one another's good points, not previous conflicts. But again, the only reason you're antagonistic to me, and DCP, is because you're a rabid anti-Mormon. You have still said nothing about Kevin Graham's "turncoat activities". Now, believe it or not, I think Kevin is a "phenomenon" worth noting, though I entirely disagree with his approach to both Islamic and Mormon issues. At least, so far, he has not gone into the gutter like you have. You are like a blood-sucking leech. (I couldn't say that on MAD, but that's a liberty I can take here).

[_Ray A]

As for "digging up dirt," what do you call FARMS Review? This is SOP for the Mopologists, so I can't really say that I feel much guilt about it.

The Review has both good and some bad points, which I already raised here when I thought I could actually reason with posters here (poor misguided me). Now do you think I'm going to criticise the Review in this CESSPOOL of anti-Mormon hatred, led my you, Scratchie? Go jerk yourself off, dick.

[_Ray A]

Yes, and this is what I'm trying to get at. Why did you do your "'turncoat' thing"? What happened? This is what I'm curious about.

Well, for a start your conspiracy theories are all wrong. As far as the Book of Mormon is concerned I never did a "turncoat thing". That is obvious from my posts on RFM. It is my belief in the Book of Mormon which kept me sympathetic to Mormonism, not DCP's emails. They were incidental. If I had not had a continuing belief in the Book of Mormon, which I share with DCP, we likely would not have had such an amicable exchange of emails. We share common ground here, even if we don't see eye to eye on the details. What occurs to me too is that his belief in the Book of Mormon has made him an infinitely better person than ratbags like you.

[_Ray A]

As for "digging up dirt," what do you call FARMS Review?

As for digging up dirt, what do you call "Mr. Scratch's" blog?

[_Ray A]

Ray----wow. I thought I had asked quite an easy-to-answer question, but apparently it sailed right over your head. Let me state this again, as plainly as I can:

During the past few months, did DCP in any way compliment you or stroke your ego? Y/N?

You did not specifiy this in your original post. Then again, I know you're not the brightest writer or thinker. And what would you consider "stroking your ego"? Do you think my ego is as big or as vain as yours? Measuring others by your own vanity again, Scratch? All of your posts reflect your own devious and distorted thiniking. You actually think I would "accommodate" someone because they are nice to me? Then how come after DCP and I had all those "exchanges" I relented? Not because of my belief in DCP, but because of our common ground in the Book of Mormon. I could also see how Mormonism made him such a likeable person, something I see sadly lacking in exmos. Mormons are generally very nice people, if anything too self-accusing. Most Internet Exmos like you are the arse of humanity. What you write would not be worthy of a toilet flushing.

Does that answer your question?

[_Ray A]

"Scratch", in spite of how your fawning, sycophant dills here obeserve your every word like sardines taking to worm bait, you must hear the truth. You are an embittered soul with devious ideas about where "Mormonism should go". In a way, Scratchie old boy, I think you're actually doing Mormonism a service. When intelligent people read your posts they, surely, have to wonder if they would ever want to join hands with a bitter old fart like you.

[_Mister Scratch]

"Not subject to spiritual slavery"??? Wow, Ray, wow.... the "FARMS intellectual thug"? Did DCP forgive you for all those things in this mysterious e-correspondence the two of you have kept going for the past couple years or so? Please, do tell!

Actually, yes he did, Scatch. You see, unlike you he's a person of integrity and doesn't hold on to old grudges.

Oh, yes he does. I have beaucoup, textual evidence demonstrating this, again and again and again. He remembers all the little barbs and attacks, and indeed his memory seems to go back quite a few years.

We actually discussed this in person when we met,

Discussed "what"? Ray, my dear friend, are you being deliberately vague?

You'll be shocked to learn she's a human being who has feelings, and is aware of all the things being said about him, and sometimes her, by some exmos who have no spine.

I honestly have no idea why you felt it necessary to haul DCP's *wife* into all of this.... However, this little slip-up only proves what I have believed all along: that DCP is a career Mopologist, and that he takes his online activities very, very seriously. Why else would he be discussing this stuff with his wife, and, apparently, leaning on her for moral support?

All of these quotes you're bringing up some four years later are totally irrelevant.

If they were so easy to dismiss, I doubt you and I would be having this exchange.

But again, the only reason you're antagonistic to me, and DCP, is because you're a rabid anti-Mormon. You have still said nothing about Kevin Graham's "turncoat activities". Now, believe it or not, I think Kevin is a "phenomenon" worth noting, though I entirely disagree with his approach to both Islamic and Mormon issues. At least, so far, he has not gone into the gutter like you have. You are like a blood-sucking leech. (I couldn't say that on MAD, but that's a liberty I can take here).

Kevin is different from you, Ray. The difference with him is that his "change" had to do with his learning new information---including information about the character of some of the chief Mopologists....

Ray----wow. I thought I had asked quite an easy-to-answer question, but apparently it sailed right over your head. Let me state this again, as plainly as I can:

During the past few months, did DCP in any way compliment you or stroke your ego? Y/N?

You did not specifiy this in your original post. Then again, I know you're not the brightest writer or thinker. And what would you consider "stroking your ego"? Do you think my ego is as big or as vain as yours? Measuring others by your own vanity again, Scratch? All of your posts reflect your own devious and distorted thiniking. You actually think I would "accommodate" someone because they are nice to me? Then how come after DCP and I had all those "exchanges" I relented? Not because of my belief in DCP, but because of our common ground in the Book of Mormon. I could also see how Mormonism made him such a likeable person, something I see sadly lacking in exmos. Mormons are generally very nice people, if anything too self-accusing. Most Internet Exmos like you are the arse of humanity. What you write would not be worthy of a toilet flushing.

Does that answer your question?

No, it doesn't. And yes, I do think you would "accommodate" someone because they were nice to you---especially if that someone was DCP.

There is another aspect of your little story that does not make any sense, Ray. You claim that your "change of heart" had to do with your faith in the Book of Mormon.... But that cannot really be the cause of your flip-flopping, since, as you yourself have repeatedly pointed out, you have maintained belief in the Book of Mormon pretty much since day one. Right? So, while it's a-okay for you to say that you and DCP have common ground when it comes to the Book of Mormon, you aren't telling us the truth when you claim that this is the "real" reason for your going turncoat. (You and DCP had the Book of Mormon as common ground back when you hated him too, remember?) So what was it, Ray? How did the Good Professor stroke your ego, and make you feel good about yourself?

[_Ray A]

No, it doesn't. And yes, I do think you would "accommodate" someone because they were nice to you---especially if that someone was DCP.

There is another aspect of your little story that does not make any sense, Ray. You claim that your "change of heart" had to do with your faith in the Book of Mormon.... But that cannot really be the cause of your flip-flopping, since, as you yourself have repeatedly pointed out, you have maintained belief in the Book of Mormon pretty much since day one. Right? So, while it's a-okay for you to say that you and DCP have common ground when it comes to the Book of Mormon, you aren't telling us the truth when you claim that this is the "real" reason for your going turncoat. (You and DCP had the Book of Mormon as common ground back when you hated him too, remember?) So what was it, Ray? How did the Good Professor stroke your ego, and make you feel good about yourself?

I explained this before, but you either missed it or forgot. When I went on FAIR I changed my approach. Interacting with Mormons there, unlike exmos here, was a positive experience for me. They were open, intelligent, and the discussions were excellent, and I did not always agree with LDS viewpoints. I sometimes started threads that rattled even Juliann, and she made it known, so there was no "buttkissing" on FAIR. I stayed within the rules. DCP was impressed with my approach to, and posts about the Book of Mormon, and I believe that where we began exchanging emails again.

[_Mister Scratch]

I explained this before, but you either missed it or forgot. When I went on FAIR I changed my approach. Interacting with Mormons there, unlike exmos here, was a positive experience for me. They were open, intelligent, and the discussions were excellent, and I did not always agree with LDS viewpoints. I sometimes started threads that rattled even Juliann, and she made it known, so there was no "buttkissing" on FAIR. I stayed within the rules. DCP was impressed with my approach to, and posts about the Book of Mormon, and I believe that where we began exchanging emails again.

(emphasis added)

Ah, of course. You see? I was right all along. You are not a principled person, Ray, who is interested in the truth. Rather, you flip-flop sides and change your position based on who is nice to you. That, to answer your earlier inquiry, is the primary difference between you and Kevin Graham.

[_Ray A]

Kevin is different from you, Ray. The difference with him is that his "change" had to do with his learning new information---including information about the character of some of the chief Mopologists....

What Kevin experienced in recent years I experienced in the 1980s. Kevin has written absolutely nothing I haven't been aware of. I was one of the first FARMS volunteers in 1983, when they had volunteers, not only in Australia, but America. Warren Aston was another of three Australian volunteers. I departed FARMS in 1987 and lost interest in it, until DCP became editor of the Review of Books on the Book of Mormon (later changed to the FARMS Review.) The reason this "formerly calm poster" became so outraged was because of the constant vicious attacks on the Church, but more so the character of people. I could only sit back and absorb so much and no more. And I've also explained to you why Pahoran has become a "Mormon Terminator". He's hardened Scratch, hardened from years and years of attacks on his character and his Church. You have endured nothing like what they have.

However, my "angst" with the Church goes back many years, beginning in 1985. So it is true there was no "new information" for me, but does a person need "new information" to have a change? What I had was a realisation, a realisation that my approach to the Church was wrong. I could see in myself all of the petty quibbling that I so often see here, and worked to eradicate it. If I am a "turncoat" that's not always such a bad thing. If you're a reformed smoker you can be viewed either as hypocritical or helpful for warning others of the dangers of smoking. I haven't criticised Kevin for his turncoat activity, because if that's where he has to be, so be it. I was in a similar situation, and who is to say Kevin won't change and mellow in years to come? Not necessarily change his ideas, but his approach.

I've told you this before, Scratch, but you're not listening. Every time you kick Mormonism, you kick it upstairs. Not the direction you want it to go