Celestial room

[_Sam Harris]

Looks like the lobby at the Hotel I stayed at recently. Where's the Continental Breakfast?

Dude, I was thinking that!

[_Sam Harris]

Paul, thank you for the posts. It is indeed a place of peace.

If you ever get to DC to see me Mok, we'll have to go up around the beltway to look at the DC temple at night, it looks like Oz...

[_Roger Morrison]

Harmony said:

If the Brethren are making correct decisions with the Lord's money, there is no reason for not releasing full disclosure. Only if the money if used for things not within the scope of the church is there reason to keep the books closed. There was reason to close them in the first place (it's in Quinn; no one has ever refuted it, so it stands as correct). Surely there is no reason to keep them closed now. Unless, of course, the Brethren really do not want the faithful to see exactly how much the Conference Center, the Main Street Plaza, and the new mall actually cost, and which fund all that money came from. These were not projects like rebuliding the Nauvoo temple, financed through contributions expressly for that purpose. These were built and/or bought with tithing money.

And until these guys die, things will not change. They're too old and set in their ways to ever hear a command from God, even if it is shouted in their ear. Something to look forward to.

Yes, it is unreasonable. BUT, it serves their purpose: Authoritarian dogmatism--bark all ya want, we got da power! And don't YOUS FORGET IT!!

It is unfortunate that "Inspired Revelation" as advertised in LDS PR pieces, on their great, and impressive web-site, is so far from what a normal person imagines that to be. Probably because it is an imagined fraudulent claim to begin with...

That Mormonism is THE key to open eternity, through their secret-combination--ROTFLing!!! Believed by such nice folks too! Like i did... Some nefarious person is said to have said: "...the bigger the lie the easier it is to be believed..." Or, words to that affect. Barnum, had another one as well...

I was up before 4 this AM and studied the Official LDS Site for several hours. Very interesting presentations & claims... Followed Moroni's (10:4-5) instructions and was impressed that there is truth in the Book of Mormon, and in Mormonism. However, truth can be found in every book that i have ever read. And in every legitimate, and otherwise, organization that has ever existed. To what extent, and to what purpose, are the questions of concern...

It further occured to me that members are not wrong to 'believe'! They are simply obedient to instructions, as conditioned to be, and as good soldiers are not accountable for collateral damage, so-to-speak. HOWEVER, LDS leadership are accountable for their instructions and responsible for damages incured under their command...

As all good strategists, the real LDS Leaders are safely harboured behind barriers insurmountable by the masses, while the front liners do battle with insurgents--such as some here ;-) LDSism needs its Gazs :-)

Hopefully LDS-good will eventually overcome LDS-bad... I'm sure it will. That's how the Universe SSSLLLLOOOWWWLLLYYY works... It took 4,000+/- years for Jesus to attempt his cleanup. We're only about half of that time from him, sooo in another 2,000+/- we should be closer. Be patient, one funeral at a time... Warm regards, Roger

[_Valorius]

We really wouldn't now where our tithing has been spent - there is no accounting to the church's members.

Tithing is primarily used to build and maintain chapels, temples and schools. Strange as it seems, I have never heard of tithing going to programs that address poverty, hunger and homelesness. If I am wrong, it would please me very much that at least a morsel of my widow's mite has gone to actually liberate the captive.

Now, there are "fast offerings" (that primarily is used to dole out money to make house payments in your ward or stake) and the "church humanitarian fund" (funnels funds to disaster type aid organizations like the Red Cross) among other things.

Flame me or agree with me on the direction of our hard earned money after it is delivered to the bishop.

We really have no idea do we?

That is just wrong.

Up there, where I put it in bold, "Tithing is primarily used to build and maintain chapels, temples and schools."

Is that what you were told? Or do you have some corroborating evidence, a church budget perhaps? I believe the universal affirmation of Anointeds' fulfilment of their responsibility 'lies' with your antepenult "We really have no idea do we?"

No, we don't. Show me. Somebody. Please. Oh, Bog, is there no accountability!?

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Valorius, interesting 'posts', welcome to the 'bored'... Warm regards, Roger

[_Valorius]

(it's in Quinn; no one has ever refuted it, so it stands as correct).

Wait up there, harmony. The lack of a refutation is not confirmation that a given conclusion is correct. If no one refutes my claim that Green Cheese is made out of Moon-dust, that would not in any right mind (maybe a left, but not a right) be confirmation that my statement is correct. All that would mean is that no one has bothered to make a refutation, or that having been made, others have not been privileged to encounter it.

I know in some science, it's said that if one theory explains things fairly well, but has flaws, until a better theory comes along, we use the flawed one. That greased my monkey so much the wrong way, I almost knocked Tonto off his horse. I can't stand being told, that if I don't have something "better" I have to accept and use something broken. I don't mean a manual tool. I can make do with a broken hammer or saw. But I can't make do with a theory that isn't true, which is what that science thing was about.

I suspect Quinn is right in his assertions. But not because no one has refuted it. If someone did refute it, I might still acceptit. And if it is wrong, it's wrong even if no one formally refutes it.

[_harmony]

(it's in Quinn; no one has ever refuted it, so it stands as correct).

Wait up there, harmony. The lack of a refutation is not confirmation that a given conclusion is correct. If no one refutes my claim that Green Cheese is made out of Moon-dust, that would not in any right mind (maybe a left, but not a right) be confirmation that my statement is correct. All that would mean is that no one has bothered to make a refutation, or that having been made, others have not been privileged to encounter it.

I know in some science, it's said that if one theory explains things fairly well, but has flaws, until a better theory comes along, we use the flawed one. That greased my monkey so much the wrong way, I almost knocked Tonto off his horse. I can't stand being told, that if I don't have something "better" I have to accept and use something broken. I don't mean a manual tool. I can make do with a broken hammer or saw. But I can't make do with a theory that isn't true, which is what that science thing was about.

I suspect Quinn is right in his assertions. But not because no one has refuted it. If someone did refute it, I might still acceptit. And if it is wrong, it's wrong even if no one formally refutes it.

You've missed the last 10 years or so, off and on, of contention, Val. That comment was pointed to some very specific people who, every time I bring up the reason why the books are closed, claim that Quinn was mistaken/had an agenda/was a lousy historian and a closet homosexual who could never be trusted to get anything right, but never put up any evidence to the contrary for why the books were closed. They prefer to not face the fact that fiscal malfeasance was why the books were closed in the first place, and is a continuing possibility as to why they remain closed. They are trusting souls. I am not.

[_DonBradley]

Just a note for Paul O.--I'm not sure "you're a liar" and the like constitute polite, congenial, scholarly, or otherwise celestial discussion. Perhaps such assertions could be saved for the lunar/terrestrial level of discusion.

Best,

Don

[_Alter Idem]

Uh, maybe the flowers are fake because there is very little natural light in most temples. Real plants would be much cheaper than silk plants--good silk plants are terribly expensive. Also, to bolster my point, the plants in the atrium of the San Diego temple are real--no doubt, because they get natural sunlight from the skylight above. Take a minute to notice the landscaping outside the temples as well; the plants are all real and very abundant. It's clear they are not cutting corners.

My favorite temple lookswise is the Vernal temple...it is so beautiful and very simple. It is Empire I believe--and very understated, yet elegant. I haven't visited the Nauvoo temple yet, but I suspect I will like it as well.

When we first moved to Salt Lake, I was disappointed that we fell into the Jordan River Temple district, as it is a rather unimpressive temple in my opinion. It doesn't have the history or the detail of the Salt Lake Temple. However, the Jordan temple has become a very special temple to me--not because of it's looks, but because of the spirit that I feel when I am there...even as we approach it, you can feel that it is a holy place. I hope we won't be moved into the Draper district when that temple is finished because I've become quite attached to Jordan River.

A sealer told us that the Jordan River temple is the busiest temple in the world for everything but live sealings. That honor goes to the Salt Lake Temple.

[_Blixa]

Uh, maybe the flowers are fake because there is very little natural light in most temples.

This could be true, Alter Idem, but wouldn't account for why they wouldn't use fresh, cut flower arrangements. Those would need replacing daily and so be much more expensive than silk flowers, but if they're not cutting corners and worried about costs that wouldn't be a concern.

No matter how much things literally cost, there are different styles of "celestrial." LDS temple interior design seems to cling to a very pedestrian and middlebrow version of the sumptuous, tied to material and wordly notions rather than providing a more otherworldly experience of the etherial (for a counter example see my blog post about the Quaker meeting house designed by artist James Turrell and his installation at P.S. 1, "Meeting.").

I understand the symbolism of progression that the rooms are supposed to suggest or even literalize. I would think, however that in order to give a foretaste of exaltation, the passage from the earthly lower kingdoms to the celestial should enact a break with all that has come before, rather than being merely a more costly extension of it.

Of course, here I could be overlaying my own particular ideas of transcendence and not those of Mormon belief: perhaps the current temple interiors are closer to the Mormon idea of an afterlife, something that always struck me as itself too mired in terrestrial obsessions with management and organization.