Wild Kingdom

[_Inconceivable]

..At least one other: that God is not what men say he is. I have a problem with a vengeful God. Vengence is not God's; vengence is manmade. God has no need for vengence, because in the end, God is the last one standing.

But what is God? I'm still working on that one...

Thanks Harmony,

All your points pretty much hit home with me.

I'm not sure either who He is. I see the blatant projection in scriptural accounts as well and feel less and less bound by "commandments" or "covenants" solely because someone said they are His. That being said, I have not discarded a moral compass that encourages me to be civil, virtuous and kind to others - including toward myself.

So far as the "prime directive" goes, that is not even cut and dry. If He really exists, He has played favorites with some, including myself and family. I have gotten the clues that He is "a respector to persons" because of the protection and peace He has afforded to myself but not to others.

And to be honest, I don't want to be anyone's favorite or poster boy when I see so many that are clearly abandoned.

[_Inconceivable]

I can see why TBM's have left this thread alone at this point. Your points are well spoken.

If I were a TBM, I would counter one of your statements by pointing out that the pain and suffering of others is a catalyst in the development of compassion and love for others. But your point is well taken that there is a disproportionate amount of the abandoned. So many seem to go unnoticed. Their suffering seems so very insignificant to a "master plan" from a loving creater.

Some would also state that others suffer that those that inflict such wickedness upon them may prove themselves worthy of the just reward God will dole to them. I have difficulty with this one. I would have been inclined to send Hitler or Mohamed Atah to Jesus much sooner than their time appointed to be judged of their works. I would have no problem making Jesus's job more difficult in this respect. I just think He could suck it up if He had to.

I have also found it difficult to believe that just and honorable God would kill a righteous man's family and servants over a bet with His nemesis. How would you like to find out that your life's purpose was to die violently at God's hand so He could prove an argument with a fallen angel? I would prefer not to one of the insignificant ten children "of a perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil".

[_Gazelam]

I can see why TBM's have left this thread alone at this point.

We have left it alone because of the simple fact that we live in a fallen world. Animals eat each other here, people kill each other. We have death, and sin, and corruption. Theres far more horrible things in the world than animals eating each other. Human beings torture, rape and kill one another in fashions that most people cannot even imagine.

How we as individuals make it through this spook alley wiull determine our ability to overcome adversity in the worlds to come.

[_Mercury]

My view is that they are slightly more historical than the Old Testament and the D&C, but there are still chunks of history left out due to man's interpretation.

Left out is a far cry from totally incorrect, the actual reality of the matter.

[_Inconceivable]

I can see why TBM's have left this thread alone at this point.

We have left it alone because of the simple fact that we live in a fallen world. Animals eat each other here, people kill each other. We have death, and sin, and corruption. Theres far more horrible things in the world than animals eating each other. Human beings torture, rape and kill one another in fashions that most people cannot even imagine.

How we as individuals make it through this spook alley wiull determine our ability to overcome adversity in the worlds to come.

Gaz,

You absolutely missed the entire point of the thread. Here, let me be help:

1) Peaceable followers of Christ would be those that emulate and countenance charity.
2) Your God commanded the peaceable followers of Christ to slaughter young ones and women. slaughter means to take whatever weapon is at one's disposal and shoot, bludgen, slash or hack a mother, father, grandparent or even an innocent child below the age of accountability until till their screams of terror or pleading for mercy subside and their organs fail. I will add, a mortal wound is not defined as humane or instant. It is what it is.

I do not speak of the "fallen world" or the "spook alley" that you refer to. I speak only of the atrocities commanded by your God and administered by your brother in Christ - the "righteous", "chosen" and "covenant people of the Lord".

3) I am overcome with the difficulty of relating to a God that would command such horrific acts by the best of His children.

I would point out that in the Book of Mormon that the AntiNephi-Lehis burried their weapons of war and covenanted with their God that they would no longer take any human life. It's a mute point, but what if God commanded them to do what He commanded David's army to do? Would they lose their salvation for refusing to take the life of their brethren?

This is why a TBM won't touch this and you left it alone. You deflected and pointed a finger at the unjustified, unclean and unchosen heathen.

Where could you possibly go with this argument without endicting and convicting even a latter day prophet or his servants?

[_Gazelam]

I'm late for work at the moment, but I do have an answer for you. I'll be sure to get back to this.

Gaz

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Icon, an interesting thread...Don B, is this what You had in mind re "serious discussion"? Harmony said:

The ancients knew less than we do now, both scientifically and spiritually. There is no reason to keep ahold of their foolishness in a vain attempt to restore that which deserves to stay lost. The Old Testament is as useful as Aesop's Fables. It teaches some correct principles, but it's not God-breathed anymore than the D&C is.

She is driving home the nail that most TBMs will/can not even pinch between their fingers. I think it MOST ENCOURAGING that "God" is up for a physical/mental/emotional examination in the clear light of the present. Paul's "dark glass" is clearing...

I have to leave to attend a funeral of a long-time TBM friend. He's 94 & has held most local LDS positions, faithfully if not competantly. I'm prepared for the typical sentiments... knowing to my very core they are more 'Aesopic' than principled in reality. BUT, "I'll be back!" Warm regards, Roger

[_ajax18]

I have a tough time dealing with the amount of pain in the world as well. Sometimes, sometimes especially according to religious doctrine of those with who I disagree, there seems to be no reason for it. Yet that's what religion is about for me, to provide a reason, because without the supernatural, I don't see one.

Yet I maintain that God provides meaning in all suffering. Whatever happens on earth does not refute the fact that God still has the afterlife and many other things that we cannot see to make things fair and meaningful. What that reason or meaning is I would love to know. Sadly I do not. Yet I believe it exists.

What advantage do you see to choosing to not believe in God or that an ultimate meaning and fairness exist?

Either way, animals writhe in pain at being eaten alive, people are burned alive, soldiers turn 18 and are given their choice of being shot by their countrymen or the enemy, and every other horrible thing that you probably would rather not even imagine.

[_ajax18]

I don't think we necessarily have to conclude that Jehovah, of the Old Testament is evil. We can still conclude that our understanding is incomplete.

I still think a big part of the problem is that many are approaching the scriptures as if this life is all there is. I don't think the gospel makes much sense without an eternal perspective. By eternal, I mean the eternal existence of the individual, the one capable of choice. While we can't necessarily see into eternity, we can choose to believe the basic principles that we know to be true. Those principles being, fairness, justice, mercy, and happiness.

[_Gazelam]

Gaz,

You absolutely missed the entire point of the thread. Here, let me be help:

1) Peaceable followers of Christ would be those that emulate and countenance charity.
2) Your God commanded the peaceable followers of Christ to slaughter young ones and women. slaughter means to take whatever weapon is at one's disposal and shoot, bludgen, slash or hack a mother, father, grandparent or even an innocent child below the age of accountability until till their screams of terror or pleading for mercy subside and their organs fail. I will add, a mortal wound is not defined as humane or instant. It is what it is.

I do not speak of the "fallen world" or the "spook alley" that you refer to. I speak only of the atrocities commanded by your God and administered by your brother in Christ - the "righteous", "chosen" and "covenant people of the Lord".

3) I am overcome with the difficulty of relating to a God that would command such horrific acts by the best of His children.

I would point out that in the Book of Mormon that the AntiNephi-Lehis burried their weapons of war and covenanted with their God that they would no longer take any human life. It's a mute point, but what if God commanded them to do what He commanded David's army to do? Would they lose their salvation for refusing to take the life of their brethren?

This is why a TBM won't touch this and you left it alone. You deflected and pointed a finger at the unjustified, unclean and unchosen heathen.

Where could you possibly go with this argument without endicting and convicting even a latter day prophet or his servants?

To properly view this you have to remember the church being compared to a vineyard. Sometimes parts are cut off and thrown away. Other times a bad part is removed and a new part grafted in.

Fertile ground has to exist in order for growth to take place. A wicked people who love themselves and their desires more than God are not a fertile ground for a child to grow up in. In the days of Noah a man like Enoch, perfect in his faith, walked the earth testifying and exorting people to work righteousness. They denied him and his miricles. This led to the days of Noah where the world had to be wiped clean.

This is no different than the times the Lord comanded the children of Israel to cleanse a place for them to dwell. Fertile ground had to be made, and abominations destroyed.