Wild Kingdom

[_DonBradley]

What advantage do you see to choosing to not believe in God or that an ultimate meaning and fairness exist?

So beliefs are things to be chosen according to their advantages? What about accuracy--truth? Beliefs aim at truth, don't they?--and not at mere advantage? If I found it advantageous to believe to believe that God condones my every action, would this be sufficient reason to believe it? How about if I found it advantageous to believe that I am all-powerful?

Finding these things advantageous may create a preference in me, but it does nothing to change external reality. A wish is not a fact. My preferring for God to exist doesn't make his existence one whit more likely; so that preference isn't a reason I should believe in his existence any more strongly. To find truth, one must follow evidence, not preference.

And the evidence provided by the horrible, gratuitous suffering of innocents is that there is no all-good Almighty running the show--regardless of what I prefer or find advantageous. After all, I'm not all-powerful, and can't conjure up a God by my own whim. Nor, for that matter, can you.

Don

[_Inconceivable]

To properly view this you have to remember the church being compared to a vineyard. Sometimes parts are cut off and thrown away. Other times a bad part is removed and a new part grafted in...

This is no different than the times the Lord comanded the children of Israel to cleanse a place for them to dwell. Fertile ground had to be made, and abominations destroyed.

Gaz, you are a Mormon and according to your belief so was (and of course is) Moses, Noah, Jesus and Brigham Young among others. Your God is the same "yesterday, today and forever".

A time will come when your prophet will command you or your children to cut off, wipe clean, throw away or otherwise cleanse a portion of His vineyard. You will be commanded to engage or otherwise assist in taking the lives of men, women and children that are not of your faith. To refuse would be to deny your faith, coming out in open rebellion against your church, your prophet and your God.

There may be a number of your pals that may even pay the ultimate sacrifice for their obedience (including yourself) - most likely because even the wicked will attempt to kill you to preserve their lives and those things they love - whether it be vices, loved ones or both.

No doubt, if you die in battle there is a mansion prepared for you as a valiant servant of the Lord in His highest kingdom. The women you will be sealed to will most assuredly be virgins.

If there is a God, my hope and prayer would be that the detonator connected to the backpack worn by any clown that believes this will explode prematurely while they are sitting on the john.

"Ethnic Cleansing"

[DrW]

Hi Ajax, you have my deep & sincere sympathy as You--respectfully--personify the pain of ignorance in a state of awareness that screams the necessity of coming to grips with your conditioning to feed your adiction: religion at its worse. I'll try to answer below in bold...

I have a tough time dealing with the amount of pain in the world as well. Sometimes, sometimes especially according to religious doctrine of those with who I disagree, there seems to be no reason for it. Yet that's what religion is about for me, to provide a reason, because without the supernatural, I don't see one. RM: It is difficult to be comfortable in disagreement. A state of mind that might be leading you to depart that environment??? Religion is not intended to be "reasonable". Rather religion--generally speaking--is a substitue for reason long used to fill voids of understanding in ancient time's wondering minds. The best they could come up with...

Yet I maintain that God provides meaning in all suffering. Whatever happens on earth does not refute the fact that God still has the afterlife and many other things that we cannot see to make things fair and meaningful. What that reason or meaning is I would love to know. Sadly I do not. Yet I believe it exists.

RM: "God" is simply a word/term used through time to denote an omnipower-person. Natural laws, as they are discovered, provide answers, "...to those with ears/eyes..." moving humanity from the mysterious to the 'serious' truth. Truth that is dependable and available, without prejudice, to all who will avail themselves of it. One, (You in this case) believes in an "after life" to their own advantage, or disadvantage. There is absolutely no evidence, or purpose, in an "after life" outside of ancient religious beliefs...

However there is evidence in a 'continuation-of-life'... It's DNA... Maybe the ancients, in their aspirations of immortality, simply unwittingly used poor terminology???

What advantage do you see to choosing to not believe in God or that an ultimate meaning and fairness exist?

RM: I respectfully suggest the Bible, Religious "God" is not real, thus should not be believe-in. By "meaning" do you mean :-) 'purpose'? Not ready to answer that... "Fairness" is that "God" is no respector of persons. Everyone is bound by the same 'laws'. Most unfainess is through ignorance or choice of disregard of cause & effect consequences--generally speaking... Not as simple as it sounds in the human-world... Pride, fear, greed, killing, prejudice & all the stuff Jesus tried to warn us of sill remain humanity's challenge...

Either way, animals writhe in pain at being eaten alive, people are burned alive, soldiers turn 18 and are given their choice of being shot by their countrymen or the enemy, and every other horrible thing that you probably would rather not even imagine. RM: Now you're facing the real life food chain in the animal world. And the issues addressed by the teacher of justice and in the social challenge of confilt resoluttion between equals in the sight of "God"...

Ajax, i don't know how old you are, what nurtured you, your genetic dispositions etc. OTOH, i know that when there's life there's hope to improve, as one proves for "THEM SELVES" where their joy is... Good luck... Warm regards, Roger

[_ajax18]

So beliefs are things to be chosen according to their advantages? What about accuracy--truth?

In a way it seems like we do choose our beliefs. Accuracy and fact are great for an earthly realm but they don't answer the deepest questions that I search. I guess that's why I've delved into the belief system because this is a religious discussion board.

You seem to be saying that my beliefs cannot be true because that would make God unfair and not good. I'm saying that God can still make things fair and good. There is plenty of room to believe and there's plenty of room for the belief to be accurate. You're right that beliefs need to be true to be of value, but given an eternal perepspective I don't see how the atrocities of this world negate the possibility of an all powerful and good God.

[_ajax18]

However there is evidence in a 'continuation-of-life'... It's DVA...

What is DVA?

Ajax, I don't know how old you are, what nurtured you, your genetic dispositions etc. OTOH, I know that when there's life there's hope to improve, as one proves for "THEM SELVES" where their joy is...

Truth is that I'm very happy with religion and living it the way I see it. My unhappiness has stemmed from religious disagreements with those who belong to the same community. They had me convinced in some ways I became very unhappy as a result. I've learned to stick to my guns more in my own thought and have found more peace in that. I'm not sure whether that means I remain a Mormon or not, but I still believe much of the "mythology."

[b] RM: I respectfully suggest the Bible, Religious "God" is not real, thus should not be believe-in. By "meaning" do you mean :-) 'purpose'? Not ready to answer that...

So you're saying, only believe it if you have evidence. The problem is that the evidence alone still doesn't provide satisfying answers to lifes questions and problems.

Let me know when you're ready to elucidate a satisfying answer for the purpose of life. The search for meaning in suffering, in life, in all I do, is one of the greatest things my religious upbringing had to offer me. It seems like many are basically saying, "Don't worry about these existential questions, don't concern yourself with it." No law of science says that there must be a meaning. It's just that I want a meaning. Perhaps I'd have a few happier years if I were to blissfully ignore this need. At times I've had to do this to an extent to survive. Yet the desire for meaning is always there.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Ajax, a typo: "DVA" is now changed to DNA I'm glad you're happy! What more do you want/need, eh!!?? You say:

Let me know when you're ready to elucidate a satisfying answer for the purpose of life. The search for meaning in suffering, in life, in all I do, is one of the greatest things my religious upbringing had to offer me. It seems like many are basically saying, "Don't worry about these existential questions, don't concern yourself with it." No law of science says that there must be a meaning. It's just that I want a meaning. Perhaps I'd have a few happier years if I were to blissfully ignore this need. At times I've had to do this to an extent to survive. Yet the desire for meaning is always there.

"...a satisfying answer" to me might not satisfy You. "Meaning in suffering??" Why should there be meaning? Seems like that might be voo-doo &/or ignoramous like?? "Reason" OTOH is a different "why", if ya get my "meaning" :-) "Reason" for sufferings, i'm up to discussing... If your "religious up-bring gave you the greatest answers"--if i'm reading you correctly--then why do you want/need more answers?

I respectfully suggest, "You supply "meaning" to Your life. Like go, do, make YOUR-LIFE meaningfull! To yourself and others." Might your "religious upbringing" have left you with poor baggage, yet to be disposed of??? How dysfunctional was your home/family? "...do this...to survive" sounds somewhat ominous. I hope i'm incorrect in my interpretation of your statements... Warm regards, Roger

[_ajax18]

Hi Ajax, a typo: "DVA" is now changed to DNA I'm glad you're happy! What more do you want/need, eh!!?? You say:

I see a certain immortality in heredity, but even DNA isn't eternal, nor even the earth.

"...a satisfying answer" to me might not satisfy You. "Meaning in suffering??" Why should there be meaning? Seems like that might be voo-doo &/or ignoramous like?? "Reason" OTOH is a different "why", if ya get my "meaning" :-) "Reason" for sufferings, I'm up to discussing... If your "religious up-bring gave you the greatest answers"--if I'm reading you correctly--then why do you want/need more answers?

And you're right to point out that that I don't find religion completely satisfying. Religionist would explain this as a lack of faith. I'm not sure that's all there is to it yet. I ask these questions because it is interesting to explore the other side (atheist thinking) and see what drives and motivates one from this school of thought.

I respectfully suggest, "You supply "meaning" to Your life. Like go, do, make YOUR-LIFE meaningfull! To yourself and others." Might your "religious upbringing" have left you with poor baggage, yet to be disposed of??? How dysfunctional was your home/family? "...do this...to survive" sounds somewhat ominous. I hope I'm incorrect in my interpretation of your statements... Warm regards, Roger

I can't prove you otherwise on me supplying these things myself. I still like to believe I've arrived at certain absolute truths. I don't consider my family dysfunctional. I still have both my biological parents at 30 years old and they're still married. Most people in this world don't get that luxury. It probably starts with questions like, "Why do I have to sit through Church?" My parents seemed to always be able to give satisfying answers. When I started to learn these ideas were more about what my parents thought and not what everyone else in Church thought, the building started to collapse. The only baggage I carry now are questions like, "What is Church doctrine?" Yet simple as it is, I still believe and trust in the simple truths taught me as a child, and probably always will. Dead people won't have to admit their wrong if it's like the atheist say. They won't admit much of anything. Loosing a few happy times because I followed a false religion isn't going to matter much to me when I'm dead if the atheists are right. Yet if religion is correct, it will matter an awful lot.

[_DonBradley]

In a way it seems like we do choose our beliefs.

Well, certainly one thing we choose is whether we want to aim at believing things are probably true, or at things that make us feel good regardless of whether they're true.

Accuracy and fact are great for an earthly realm but they don't answer the deepest questions that I search. I guess that's why I've delved into the belief system because this is a religious discussion board.

So, for 'earthly' questions, like whether there are penguins in the Arctic, accuracy matters, but on the deep, ultimate questions, it doesn't matter whether you're beliefs are accurate or not? To say that accuracy is of no, or little, interest to you in such questions just is to say that you don't care whether your answers are true, just as long as you like them--a good fantasy will do just fine.

You seem to be saying that my beliefs cannot be true because that would make God unfair and not good.

Actually, my argument addresses the existence of God, as traditionally defined, regardless of whether you happen to hold this belief or not.

I'm saying that God can still make things fair and good.

This also doesn't help and misses the point of my argument. Whether God can later "make up" for gratuitous suffering has no bearing whatsoever on the argument. The argument is that if God is almighty, he can create the world such that there will be no gratuitous suffering for which to "make up" in the first place. And if God is all-good, then he would so create it, and also provide a good afterlife.

You're right that beliefs need to be true to be of value, but given an eternal perepspective I don't see how the atrocities of this world negate the possibility of an all powerful and good God.

That you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so. God could try to "make up" the gratuitous suffering he allowed all he wants in the eternities, and this still wouldn't make him all-good for allowing it in the first place.

Don

[_Roger Morrison]

Good AM Ajax, You said... into which i'll bold some stuff & comment @ the end:

I still like to believe I've arrived at certain absolute truths. I don't consider my family dysfunctional. I still have both my biological parents at 30 years old and they're still married. Most people in this world don't get that luxury. It probably starts with questions like, "Why do I have to sit through Church?" My parents seemed to always be able to give satisfying answers. When I started to learn these ideas were more about what my parents thought and not what everyone else in Church thought, the building, started to collapse. The only baggage I carry now are questions like, "What is Church doctrine?" Yet simple as it is, I still believe and trust in the simple truths taught me as a child, and probably always will. Dead people won't have to admit their wrong if it's like the atheist say. They won't admit much of anything. Loosing a few happy times because I followed a false religion isn't going to matter much to me when I'm dead if the atheists are right. Yet if religion is correct, it will matter an awful lot.

What absolute truths other than those scientist & engineers use? As you might know the term "absolute-truth" is now considered a poor term. "Probability" is considered more accurate in today's world...

Glad you come from a happy-home. But don't think that divorce-free-families are never dysfunctional. They can harbor some very-bad-stuff...

Your parents had/have their reasons for their church membership. Yours are yours, to stay or leave...

What, "simple truths taught" to you as a child?

A person can lose a few happy times under any circumstances; religion can be irrelevant to that...

Whether religion is right or wrong will not matter an iota if/when a person lives by a code of ethics and integrity based on principles of morality wherein they avoid being mean-&-nasty, they are honest and caring and can relate to others with compassion & generousity, they will generally be happy and a good neighbor in mortality.

Ain't much that matters more... They'll die with a clear conscience leaving fond memmories with others... IF there's an after-life then they're home-free, IF what we're told is true about being welcomed by St. Peter for yer good-deeds :-)

Live, love and be happy, cuz yer goin' to die regardless of belief. Now that's an "Absolute" to depend on... Warm regards Roger

[_ajax18]

That you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so. God could try to "make up" the gratuitous suffering he allowed all he wants in the eternities, and this still wouldn't make him all-good for allowing it in the first place

.

Is it possible that one gains experience, learning, and meaning, that can make even the most pointless suffering, perhaps necessary for a greater good?

So, for 'earthly' questions, like whether there are penguins in the Arctic, accuracy matters, but on the deep, ultimate questions, it doesn't matter whether you're beliefs are accurate or not? To say that accuracy is of no, or little, interest to you in such questions just is to say that you don't care whether your answers are true, just as long as you like them--a good fantasy will do just fine.

I don't think we really can get accuracy on supernatural issues. I know the burden of proof is on he who claims it to exist, but like Roger said, we deal in probabilities. There is always a chance. Anything can happen. Sure it matters whether my beliefs are accurate or not. I'm just exploring the effects of different beliefs.