The Origin of FAIR/MAD

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:I'd like to know more details about him calling you a liar, too. What film? What was the entire statement? What evidence and context can you provide?

The film is entitled The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon, and it is produced and aggressively marketed by an anti-Mormon enterprise located in Brigham City, Utah, that operates under the name Living Hope Ministries. Here is something that I published in response to it:

A personal note: One of the more graceless moments in the film comes when it presents a decontextualized clip from a videotaped lecture of mine after which Tom Murphy declares that "Dan Peterson is lying."*[see footnote] Murphy suggests to his audience that I was saying that scholars everywhere, in and out of the church, find the claims of the Book of Mormon largely unobjectionable—a proposition that, had I really advanced it, could, of course, be instantly demonstrated false and might even qualify me as certifiably insane. But I have never said anything of the sort (nor even thought it). My specific point, in the comment to which Murphy objects, has nothing whatever to do with demographics, geography, technology, ecology, metallurgy, archaeology, or anything of the sort, as Murphy should have realized and as he could easily have determined, if by no other means, by asking me. Whether deliberately or out of careless incompetence, Murphy and Living Hope Ministries have grossly misrepresented my position, a position that I have explained in scores of public lectures. (The very fact that I have published many thousands of words defending the Book of Mormon against criticisms demonstrates beyond reasonable dispute that I am both aware of such criticisms and willing to publicly acknowledge them.) My point in the passage from the lecture that Murphy or his handlers carefully extracted to serve as their straw man is a simple and very limited one, essentially stylistic, which I stand by and which I am quite willing to defend: The Book of Mormon does not strain to create an aura of pseudo-oriental exoticism or antiquity; apart, obviously, from its miracles and revelations, and apart from the visit of Jesus Christ to the Nephites (though, really, even in those cases), its narrative is sober, understated, conforming to ordinary quotidian experience of cause and effect, unmarred by the excesses that make much medieval hagiography so literally incredible. It reads like real history. It is reminiscent, rhetorically, of the better ancient and medieval chronicles, and, indeed, of the Bible. When Murphy brands me a liar for having asserted this, besides revealing either his failure to grasp my point or a cavalier unconcern about accurately representing the opinions of those whom he has been engaged to attack, he coarsens the discourse in a way that is both shamefully uncivil and wholly unjustifiable and that his avowedly Christian sponsors should not be seeking to promote with their film.

*[footnote] The filmed lecture (entitled "A Scholar Looks at Evidences for the Book of Mormon") is available via farms.BYU.edu/multimedia/index.php?cat=Book of Mormon (accessed 11 January 2006). I wrote to Murphy on 7 November 2005 to chide him for what I regard as, among other things, a gratuitous and unprofessional public insult and, frankly, to give him an opportunity to apologize. Responding that same day, he was unashamed. He repeated and underscored his accusation and, in fact, broadened it to include essentially everybody else affiliated with the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Nightingale:

harmony knows extremely little about BYU, but she compensates for her ignorance on the subject by being very, very contemptuous.


Nightingale, suffice to say that Daniel knows very little about harmony, but he compensates for his ignorance by being very very contemptuous.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:Why are you so obsessed with the idea of exmormons chastising other exmormons? This goes back to your notion of holding all of us responsible for the worst of RfM, simply because we don't, somehow, magically, control other people's behavior. If I wanted the job of chastising people for bad behavior, I'd sign up to be a moderator. I only chastise when I just can't take it anymore.


My answer to that is in the portion of your post I bolded. And I've said this many times, the "formerly calm poster". It was the same on the old Shades board, where I had many constructive discussions, particularly with Shades about Church procedures, etc. On the new board things initially looked better, and more Mormons were posting. I wanted open and frank discussions about Mormonism, but that could not happen in the atmosphere. Even Scratch acknowledged that he thought I was for months "boiling over" but saying nothing.

beastie wrote:I don't recall seeing you be the behavior police over on MAD. Then again, if that's what you want to do, go for it. It's not what I want to do. Fussing at other people like that rarely has any effect, so when I do it, it is simply venting.


I was never the "behaviour police" on MAD - the mods are.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Nightingale, suffice to say that Daniel knows very little about harmony, but he compensates for his ignorance by being very very contemptuous.

Actually, I've watched her ignorant but contemptuous posts about BYU for several years now, and it's on that subject, and that alone, that I commented here.

I leave to harmony the practice of denouncing somebody that one has never met as just generally a very poor disciple of Christ.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Ray A wrote: He even put a serious question mark over the character of Jan, and that I find despicable.


So Jan is St Jan now? Sorry, I must have missed that canonization.

Jan's the one who had what turned out to be the fake transcript. She's not exactly squeeky clean on that thread.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
harmony wrote:Nightingale, suffice to say that Daniel knows very little about harmony, but he compensates for his ignorance by being very very contemptuous.

Actually, I've watched her ignorant but contemptuous posts about BYU for several years now, and it's on that subject, and that alone, that I commented here.


And yet, since you have no idea who I am, you have no idea what I know about BYU nor do you know how I know it.

I leave to harmony the practice of denouncing somebody that one has never met as just generally a very poor disciple of Christ.


An easily remedied situation, Daniel. All that poor disciple needs to do is live the religion they profess to love. You know the drill:

Be ye therefore kind to one another.
Love one another.
Turn the other cheek.
Be thou humble.
Bear one another's burdens.
Cease to do evil.
Reprove not a scorner.
Be not wise of your own conceits.

And this one, written especially for the learned: When they are learned, they think they are wise.
And this one, written especially for the proud among us: do not procrastinate the day of your repentence.

Amen, and amen.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

harmony wrote:
Ray A wrote: He even put a serious question mark over the character of Jan, and that I find despicable.


So Jan is St Jan now? Sorry, I must have missed that canonization.

Jan's the one who had what turned out to be the fake transcript. She's not exactly squeeky clean on that thread.


She is, in fact, a Latter-day Saint, so yes. Here was Scratch's comment:

It seems that, at base, what we have here is a bunch of people--CI, juliann, rchivist, and possibly Jan---attempting to smear Murphy based on second-hand accounts.


Possibly? Scratch has already demonsrated that he does not care for the opinion of others - he "interprets", and speculates, and fires away with innuendo.

And here is Scratch's final summary:

It revealed countless details about a number of important and significant characters in the world of online Mormonism. It shows us that :
---Juliann has no compunctions against totally inventing evidence if it suits her rotten ends.
---DCP/FreeThinker is a glib and mean-spirited deceiver, who really and truly does engage in smear tactics. (Couple this with his behavior vis-a-vis Mike Quinn, and it is game, set, and match.)
---Confidential Informant / Pentatach1 feels okay about discarding all other questions if it means having to give up his smear campaign
---Jan has allowed herself to get caught up with some very dishonest folks
---Overall, the TBMs will lie for each other, in order to protect their baloney stories.


With one fell swoop "summary" Scratch has deducted that "overall" "TBM's will lie for each other". They are "mean-spirited deceivers". And who are the "honest good guys"? Exmos. Of course. Like Scratch himself. Squeaky clean.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

harmony wrote: All that poor disciple needs to do is live the religion they profess to love. You know the drill:

Be ye therefore kind to one another.
Love one another.
Turn the other cheek.
Be thou humble.
Bear one another's burdens.
Cease to do evil.
Reprove not a scorner.
Be not wise of your own conceits.

And this one, written especially for the learned: When they are learned, they think they are wise.
And this one, written especially for the proud among us: do not procrastinate the day of your repentence.

Amen, and amen.


And I presume you apply, and live all of this yourself?
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Ray A wrote:
harmony wrote:
Ray A wrote: He even put a serious question mark over the character of Jan, and that I find despicable.


So Jan is St Jan now? Sorry, I must have missed that canonization.

Jan's the one who had what turned out to be the fake transcript. She's not exactly squeeky clean on that thread.


She is, in fact, a Latter-day Saint, so yes. Here was Scratch's comment:

It seems that, at base, what we have here is a bunch of people--CI, juliann, rchivist, and possibly Jan---attempting to smear Murphy based on second-hand accounts.


Possibly? Scratch has already demonsrated that he does not care for the opinion of others - he "interprets", and speculates, and fires away with innuendo.

And here is Scratch's final summary:

It revealed countless details about a number of important and significant characters in the world of online Mormonism. It shows us that :
---Juliann has no compunctions against totally inventing evidence if it suits her rotten ends.
---DCP/FreeThinker is a glib and mean-spirited deceiver, who really and truly does engage in smear tactics. (Couple this with his behavior vis-a-vis Mike Quinn, and it is game, set, and match.)
---Confidential Informant / Pentatach1 feels okay about discarding all other questions if it means having to give up his smear campaign
---Jan has allowed herself to get caught up with some very dishonest folks
---Overall, the TBMs will lie for each other, in order to protect their baloney stories.


With one fell swoop "summary" Scratch has deducted that "overall" "TBM's will lie for each other". They are "mean-spirited deceivers". And who are the "honest good guys"? Exmos. Of course. Like Scratch himself. Squeaky clean.


Ray, you're in over your head.

On that thread, the members are the ones making false claims, tampering with evidence, and then trying to cover it up by lying about it. Jan allowed herself to be implicated in the entire scheme. She doesn't come off as Saint Jan anything. She's as culpable as any co-conspirator. She knew what was correct, and she chose to align herself with those who were twisting the truth beyond recognition. Although this does not knock the halo off her head in your eyes, it definitely tarnishes it if not reveal it to be made of brass, for many other people who were sorely disappointed in her.

Try again.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:An easily remedied situation, Daniel. All that poor disciple needs to do is live the religion they profess to love. You know the drill:

Be ye therefore kind to one another.
Love one another.
Turn the other cheek.
Be thou humble.
Bear one another's burdens.
Cease to do evil.
Reprove not a scorner.
Be not wise of your own conceits.

And this one, written especially for the learned: When they are learned, they think they are wise.
And this one, written especially for the proud among us: do not procrastinate the day of your repentence.

Amen, and amen.

Actually, my living the Gospel is not the remedy for your arrogant judgmentalism. You don't know me, and have never met me. You may well never have met anyone who has met me. You're in no position to judge me. You don't know how I live. You don't know anything about my attempts to be a disciple of Christ.

You don't know whether or not I'm kindly.

You don't know whether I'm loving.

You don't know whether I'm forgiving.

You don't know whether I'm humble.

You don't know whether or how much I bear the burdens of others.

You don't know whether I repent.

Yet you insinuate that I fall short on all those counts, and you presume to publicly pronounce me a poor follower of the Savior.

And you do it with apparently no sense of the wild inappropriateness of it, the flagrantly unbiblical character of it, and the stunning pridefulness of it.

Truly amazing.
Post Reply