Question for Dr. Peterson Regarding Joseph Smith/Polygamy

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_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Jason wrote:So now they did not sin and somehow GOd is letting Joseph use David and Solomon to justify polygamy.

This certainly seems an absolute reversal of the Book of Mormon, the most correct book and keystone to our religion.


Exactly! Why were Jacob's words supposedly "left open to interpretation"? Jacob's words, as part of the Book of Mormon, should have been translated correctly from the get-go.

This is not a case where, as with the Old Testament, things were translated and re-translated, etc. This is the Book of Mormon we're talking about.

If Jacob meant that there were exceptions, why didn't he make that more clear?
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Gaz wrote:David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants


Since Gaz brought this up, maybe one of the scriptorians here can clarify. Is there any other place in the Old Testament, etc. where the scriptures speak of Moses taking more than one wife?

Just curious...
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

liz3564 wrote:Since Gaz brought this up, maybe one of the scriptorians here can clarify. Is there any other place in the Old Testament, etc. where the scriptures speak of Moses taking more than one wife?

Just curious...


I believe the Old Testament mentions Moses taking a woman named Keturah as a plural wife.
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Post by _The Nehor »

Dr. Shades wrote:
liz3564 wrote:Since Gaz brought this up, maybe one of the scriptorians here can clarify. Is there any other place in the Old Testament, etc. where the scriptures speak of Moses taking more than one wife?

Just curious...


I believe the Old Testament mentions Moses taking a woman named Keturah as a plural wife.


Keturah (spelling?) was Abraham's third wife. Traditionally her children were supposed to have headed North and formed the nucleus of Greek Learning. This may be a fable to tie Greek Learning to Abraham's knowledge or it could be true.

We know Moses married the daughter of Jethro. There is also the accusation levelled against him that he married an Ethiopian woman. According to Josephesus this was a political marriage that ended a way between Egypt and the Ethiopians when he was an Egyptian General. Whether this marriage was more than ceremonial can't be known from current sources. There is no record of her being with the Exodus.
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Post by _Seven »

Hi Liz,
I found this page that might be helpful.

http://www.btinternet.com/~familyman/pMoses.htm

The Bible rarely mentions a man's marital status. We are sometimes told plenty of details about individuals and events in which they were involved, only to remain unaware of whether they were married. Occasionally we come across a single statement at the end of the Biblical account which gives us a clue to the answer, such as that of Gideon.

"And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives. And his concubine that was in Shechem, she also bare him a son, whose name he called Abimelech." Judges 8 vv 30-31

Put simply, the Bible doesn't often consider it important to tell us whether a man was married, and if he was, to how many women he was married. This has led to many men being claimed as "monogamist", because only one wife is recorded, or because the Bible doesn't specifically pick them out as polygamists.

It has often been noted that the example of many godly men in the Bible who were polygamists is, to say the least, a little inconvenient for those who claim that the Bible preaches monogamy. The polygamists definitely have Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon as their predecessors. The monogamy-only crowd can only argue from silence or from limited records, and they don't really like it. Hence it becomes very important to claim major Bible characters as monogamous, if only to try to counterbalance the blatant polygamy of so many of God's finest. And if you are looking for great Bible characters then Moses is certainly up there with the best of them. The man who wrote the five books of the Torah, who first recorded that marriage made a man and his wife "one flesh", who first gave the law to the people of God, is an impressive person to have on your side of the argument. In fact, if he turned out to be a polygamist this would make life difficult for those who suggest that his writings contain material incompatible with polygamy. And as a bonus to those obsessed with monogamy, we only know the name of one wife of Moses!


For these reasons Moses is sometimes claimed to be monogamous, and those of us who dare to suggest otherwise are often "put right" in no uncertain terms by those who make those claims, usually with some sort of side-swipe to suggest that this proves we do not know our Bibles very well. Moses they say, was married to Zipporah, and no other wife is recorded, and so we ought not to defame him by claiming he was engaged in such a notorious practice as polygamy.

So what do we know about Zipporah? Well we know she was a Midianite and that Midian was the son of Keturah, one of Abraham's wives, and that she was brought back to Moses by her father, as soon as Moses had led the children of Israel out of Egypt. We then find that Aaron and Miriam complain about a wife of Moses in Numbers 12. The Bible says that Aaron and Miriam spoke against Moses "because of the Ethiopian woman he had married." - or if you are old-fashioned like me, because of his 'Cushite' wife (as Cush is how the word was translated before the translators began using "Ethiopia". In fact it may be more accurate to use the term "Sudan").

The question is - "Is Moses Ethiopian wife of Numbers 12 the same as Zipporah, his Midianite wife?"

Well, Zipporah was descended from Midian, and therefore Abraham and ultimately from Noah's son Shem (Gen. 25 vv 1-4). Cush, however was descended from Noah's son Ham, not Shem (1 Chr. 1 vv 8-10). So the titles of Cushite (Ethiopian) and Midianite refer to entirely different nations from different descendants of Noah, and it may be considered unlikely that Zipporah descended from both Cush and Midian, because of the tradition of endogamy mentioned in the Bible, where people married their own kind, and normally went to some trouble to do so.

Some have suggested that Zipporah was "an Ethiopian subject" - because it is clear that, as a Midianite, she was not an ethnic Ethiopian. But where does the Bible say this? Nowhere. In fact, does it talk of anyone in such terms - did the Jews become Babylonians when they were in the captivity? No. Were they called Egyptians when they were in Egypt? No. The idea of some being called after a certain nation because they were subject to that nation does not appear to be found in scripture. And, in any event, it is clear that Zipporah is in no way subject to Ethiopia - she is married to the man leading Israel. It is hard to imagine how she could be less subject to any other nation.

Also, there is no scriptural evidence that the Midianites were subject to Ethiopia, and no separate historical evidence has been provided. Take a look at a Bible atlas - they are not even close - Cush (Ethiopia) is to the South of Egypt - To get to Midian from Egypt you go East across the Gulf of Suez, East across Sinai, East across the Gulf of Aqaba and, congratulations, you have arrived. It is not a very credible suggestion that Cush ruled Midian, and that because of this Midianites were called Cushites.

The explanation then begins to look a bit contrived - as if trying to get round a difficulty. The Bible is happy to talk of Zipporah as a Midianite. Her name and ethnic origin are not hidden - we even know the name of her brother (Numbers 10 v 29) and the name of her father (Reuel in Exodus 2v18 and Numbers 10 v29) and of Jethro, another male relation, in Exodus 3 v 1. The point is that she is not Mrs. Anonymous, and there is no reason for skirting round her identity. But suddenly in Numbers 12 we are talking of "the Ethiopian woman he had married" - no name or details other than that she is a Cushite (Ethiopian).

And this is strange, because only two chapters earlier (Numbers 10v29), Zipporah's family are being referred to as Midianites. Midianite is the term that Numbers used for her people - so when it uses Cushite, there is every reason to suspect that it is referring to someone else.

To believe that this woman is Zipporah is to believe that God happily referred to these people as Midianites, then called them Cushites in Numbers 12, and then went back to calling them Midianites, that he was happy to call Zipporah by name, and then changed his mind in Chapter 12 and instead called her something she had never been called before, relating her to a nation that she didn't come from but that she might, just might, have been subject to, although there is no evidence or reason to believe that is the case.

A little far-fetched?

So what is the deal with Moses and the Cushite wife?

Well, there are two things. Firstly we know that Moses was married to Zipporah, and that he is married to this Cushite. If you check the first verses of Exodus 16, 18 and 19 you will see that Zipporah returned to Moses sometime in the second or third month after the exodus from Egypt. If you check Numbers 10 vv 11 and 29 you will find that one year later her Father is still Moses Father-in-law (i.e. Zipporah is still with us) and if you follow the action into Numbers 12 you will see that hardly any time passes before Aaron and Miriam get all hot and bothered about the Cushite wife. There is very little time available for Zipporah conveniently to die in order to maintain Moses as a monogamist.

This means essentially, that it appears that Moses was still married to Zipporah when he was married to the Cushite, i.e. Moses didn't just remarry when she died - Moses was a polygamist.

Secondly, the one thing we know of this other wife is that she is a Cushite, a descendant of Ham. What do we know of the Cushites? That Jeremiah 13 v 23 records a prophecy asking, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard its spots?", that Cush means "black" or "burnt face" and these nations populated Africa, which is still where you will find Ethiopia. In other words, Moses married a black woman as well as Zipporah, and his family didn't like it.

So it seems that Aaron and Miriam didn't like the Cushite - possibly because she was black, or possibly because it made Moses polygamous, or possibly because of both reasons - and God punished them for it. Ironically, Miriam's punishment turns her white as snow, which may be another clue to the nature of the dispute.
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Post by _moksha »

So it seems that Aaron and Miriam didn't like the Cushite - possibly because she was black, or possibly because it made Moses polygamous, or possibly because of both reasons - and God punished them for it. Ironically, Miriam's punishment turns her white as snow, which may be another clue to the nature of the dispute.


And so the curse of whiteness fell upon them, that all men may know of their shame by the Jell-O that they consume.
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Re: Jacob chp.2

Post by _Inconceivable »

Gazelam wrote: At various times God has called upon his people to enter that marriage dicipline given to Abraham, the practice known as plural marriage.

(Inconceivable in Bold print)
Define "plural marriage" then and now. This is not that. For example: there is no indication that any of these so called men justifiably taking the wives of married men - except for one instance where it was prohibited? (see David below)

There is no indication whatsoever in the biblical account that God was in any way displeased or even concerned that Abraham took hagar, Sarah's handmaid, to wife (genesis 16). We learn, in fact, in modern revelation that God himself commanded it (see D&C 132).

Abraham banished not only his common law wife Hagar, but their son as well. Not just out of his land, but into the wilderness. I'd call this a dead beat dad. Did this please God as well? What was his justification?

Why, then, are the actions of David and Solomon spoken of as abominations? Why does the taking of plural wives by Abraham, Jacob, or Moses go uncondemned?

But they were condemned. Jacob makes no distinctions here except to splain why all is an abomination.

Jacob was denouncing unauthorized marriages, on the part of David and Solomon. Such constituted adultery, sexual sin against the marriage covenant.

No, once again, he made no distinction.

David's adulterous actions with Bathsheba were unauthorized and condemned (2 Samuel 11-12). Solomon's marriage to "strange wives," to foreign women who turned his heart away from the everlasting covenant and the worship of the Lord Jehovah, was unauthorized and condemned (1 Kings 11).

Not exactly. According to "modern revelation", David would have been exempt from condemnation had he not murdered Bathsheba's husband. Murder was why he lost his "exaltation". How many ways can an apologist have it?? Jacob made no distinction between strange and less strange wives.

Modern revelation places the entire question into a proper doctrinal and historical perspective:

The D&C (Deceipt and Contradictions) is a book of scripture, so is the Book of Mormon. Which has been added to and taken away from over the past 170 years to justify anti social behavior? Which is the most correct of any book? Which has remained (for the most part) the "standard"? Let's remember what GBH said to Larry King

"Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him by [by God], and he abode my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded; they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me. David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power;

Did God command Abraham to have intercourse with Hagar, or did his wife command it? Did this please God even though He promised Abraham children biologically through Sarah? Wasn't Sarah being impatient and less faithful to God's promises? Is that why Abraham and Sarah ultimately saw Hagar and his son as having no rights to patriarchal entitlement?

and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife [Bathsheba]; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them[his wives] out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord." (D&C 132:37-39; italics added

Now this is a contradiction. Smith's God tells us that there was only one case where David sinned. Was it the murder or the adultery?. Jacob (Book of Mormon) tells us there were abominations (plural). Where is the distinction?


On a side note, why would I want David's wives? They have already given their virtue (or lilly) to another man. According to current Mormon doctrine, virtue is virtue. You can't have it back once given - whether you give it to a "righteous" fornicator or the other kind. Who, in the celestial kingdom would settle for abc gum?. Or will God flip the odometer back to zero for these guilded women? Is there CarFax in the celestial kingdom? hmm..

I also find it amazing how some will take Jacob 2&3 at face value and see what is most accurately stated, and others will peruse and discard, looking only for loopholes and exceptions to justify a wicked man's (and his friends) abominable behavior. Taken in it's entirety, it is a discourse on a specific abomination.

I would much prefer to live the simple principles of Jacob 2&3, than to live another based on doctrine that reads like the U.S. tax code.

(Please excuse for the long post. But I feel much better now)
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

(Please excuse for the long post. But I feel much better now)



No need to be excused! Great post!

:)
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Inconceivable......

You get nothing but gold stars from me for your post!!! It drives me insane (so that's what's doing it?) whenever I hear/read LDS use the Old Testament as a reference for plural marriage.

Thank you!

Jersey Girl
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

Jersey Girl wrote:Inconceivable......

You get nothing but gold stars from me for your post!!! It drives me insane (so that's what's doing it?) whenever I hear/read LDS use the Old Testament as a reference for plural marriage.

Thank you!

Jersey Girl
Yes, funny how Mormons will defend the "most correct book" with the one that was not "completely translated correctly"... I call it the Bible card, which they love to pull.
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