The Origin of FAIR/MAD

[_Mister Scratch]

It is interesting to observe that I heard that Quinn was gay first from statements made by Rollo. In fact, I think that the prolongation of this topic and repeated accusations directed at DCP is actually spreading this tid bit around to new people at a rate that dwarfs anthing DCP said.

I first discussed it on FAIR in the Wall Street Journal article thread in April 2006, after another poster said that Quinn's homosexuality was the reason for his excommunication, and I responded that was not the reason. DCP then jumped in about how his "circles" had long known of Quinn's sexual orientation, and that even Quinn's SP knew.

DCP himself has also stated that Quinn's sexual orientation played a role in his excommunication. Thus, if this is true, and Quinn was harmed/punished for this reason, then the gossipmongering amongst TBMs should most definitely be seen as a bad thing. (I.e., it seems likely that somebody would have ratted him out to the SP, or to BKP.)

[_Yoda]

Wait....Shades split this thread.

I thought the Quinn/DCP stuff was going to be posted here

I agree with Bond. The controversy surrounding the transcript is a little more "sexy". That's what I thought the primary focus of this thread was suppose to be.

You started the thread, Scratch. Your call. I'm just trying to keep the two subjects straight. ;)

[_Daniel Peterson]

DCP himself has also stated that Quinn's sexual orientation played a role in his excommunication.

Correction: I've stated that I thought it likely that Quinn's homosexuality played a role in Quinn's excommunication. My evidence for this is simply the fact that Quinn's stake president was apparently aware of Quinn's sexual orientation (as, I'm guessing, were hundreds of hundreds of other people, at a minimum, both believers and non-believers) prior to the church court.

I don't know for certain that it is so since I wasn't there and since nobody who was there has ever said anything about it, but I know for certain that homosexual behavior very often leads to excommunication, and I would be surprised to learn that it didn't play a role in Quinn's case.

Thus, if this is true, and Quinn was harmed/punished for this reason, then the gossipmongering amongst TBMs [which has not been demonstrated to have existed, let alone to have existed only among believing Latter-day Saints] should most definitely be seen as a bad thing. (I.e., it seems likely that somebody would have ratted him out to the SP, or to BKP.)

Why is it assumed that the stake president could only have learned about Quinn's homosexuality via gossip? It could, for example, have come via confession from a partner. That wouldn't qualify as "gossip" to most people, I expect -- any more than the testimony of an accomplice or a witness to a crime would normally be termed "gossip."

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I've been gone for a week and the idiotic and malevolent smear-campaign is still going on?

Welcome back. What was true when you left is still true upon your return.

[_Mister Scratch]

DCP himself has also stated that Quinn's sexual orientation played a role in his excommunication.

Correction: I've stated that I thought it likely that Quinn's homosexuality played a role in Quinn's excommunication. My evidence for this is simply the fact that Quinn's stake president was apparently aware of Quinn's sexual orientation (as, I'm guessing, were hundreds of hundreds of other people, at a minimum, both believers and non-believers) prior to the church court.

I don't know for certain that it is so since I wasn't there and since nobody who was there has ever said anything about it, but I know for certain that homosexual behavior very often leads to excommunication, and I would be surprised to learn that it didn't play a role in Quinn's case.

If you did not "know for certain," then why were you openly speculating upon it on FAIR/MAD? This seems especially odd coming from someone who claims to disapprove of such speculation.

Thus, if this is true, and Quinn was harmed/punished for this reason, then the gossipmongering amongst TBMs [which has not been demonstrated to have existed, let alone to have existed only among believing Latter-day Saints] should most definitely be seen as a bad thing. (I.e., it seems likely that somebody would have ratted him out to the SP, or to BKP.)

Why is it assumed that the stake president could only have learned about Quinn's homosexuality via gossip? It could, for example, have come via confession from a partner. That wouldn't qualify as "gossip" to most people, I expect -- any more than the testimony of an accomplice or a witness to a crime would normally be termed "gossip."

(emphasis added)

Just what are you suggesting here, Prof. P.? Is this yet another instance of your gossipmongering? Suggesting not only that a "partner" ratted Quinn out, but that the SP blabbed about it to some member of your "circle"? (And, I might add, that you are now blabbing about it here?) I think you have made a tragic mistake here, my friend.

[_Mister Scratch]

Let's backtrack and take a look at something. The following is a passage from the email you sent to Dr. Shades:

Unless I’m much mistaken, Quinn’s stake president had never met Quinn when my friend spoke with him, but he was already well aware of Quinn’s sexual orientation. (And, frankly, of more than merely his orientation. A sad incident within his stake had brought the matter very painfully to the stake president’s attention.) And I don’t believe that it was my friend who raised the issue of Quinn’s homosexuality, nor even of Quinn in general. As I recall, it was the stake president, an old friend of his, who broached the subject. The visit was not about Quinn, but was simply an encounter between two long-time friends, and the topic of Mike Quinn emerged in passing.

There seem to be a number of questionable/unethical things at play here.

1) Why was the SP---Paul Hanks---blabbing about a private matter like this to your friend?
2) Why, in turn, did you friend tell you about what ought to have been a private ecclesiastical matter?
3) Why, finally, did you go on about it on the FAIRboard?

On the one hand, you try to claim that all of this is "common knowledge," and yet this "sad incident" is clearly something that was circulating only amongst you and your gossip-mongering associates. (This totally blows apart your earlier protests that the discussion was not "considerable.")

[_Mister Scratch]

Wait....Shades split this thread.

I thought the Quinn/DCP stuff was going to be posted here

I agree with Bond. The controversy surrounding the transcript is a little more "sexy". That's what I thought the primary focus of this thread was suppose to be.

You started the thread, Scratch. Your call. I'm just trying to keep the two subjects straight. ;)

Liz---

I prefer the organic approach to thread development. If somebody would like to start a separate thread dealing with the bogus transcript, that's fine by me, but I'd prefer that this thread be left alone. (Frankly, I don't think there is really anything more to discuss vis-a-vis that transcript. The Mopologists cannot offer up any defense, and so that's that.)

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Unless I’m much mistaken, Quinn’s stake president had never met Quinn when my friend spoke with him, but he was already well aware of Quinn’s sexual orientation. (And, frankly, of more than merely his orientation. A sad incident within his stake had brought the matter very painfully to the stake president’s attention.)

...

On the one hand, you try to claim that all of this is "common knowledge," and yet this "sad incident" is clearly something that was circulating only amongst you and your gossip-mongering associates. (This totally blows apart your earlier protests that the discussion was not "considerable.")

Agreed. DCP's reference to a "sad incident" takes this beyond merely passing conversation.

[_Yoda]

Wait....Shades split this thread.

I thought the Quinn/DCP stuff was going to be posted here

I agree with Bond. The controversy surrounding the transcript is a little more "sexy". That's what I thought the primary focus of this thread was suppose to be.

You started the thread, Scratch. Your call. I'm just trying to keep the two subjects straight. ;)

Liz---

I prefer the organic approach to thread development. If somebody would like to start a separate thread dealing with the bogus transcript, that's fine by me, but I'd prefer that this thread be left alone. (Frankly, I don't think there is really anything more to discuss vis-a-vis that transcript. The Mopologists cannot offer up any defense, and so that's that.)

That's cool! Like I said, your thread, your call! ;)

[_Mister Scratch]

Unless I’m much mistaken, Quinn’s stake president had never met Quinn when my friend spoke with him, but he was already well aware of Quinn’s sexual orientation. (And, frankly, of more than merely his orientation. A sad incident within his stake had brought the matter very painfully to the stake president’s attention.)

...

On the one hand, you try to claim that all of this is "common knowledge," and yet this "sad incident" is clearly something that was circulating only amongst you and your gossip-mongering associates. (This totally blows apart your earlier protests that the discussion was not "considerable.")

Agreed. DCP's reference to a "sad incident" takes this beyond merely passing conversation.

Absolutely. I also have a hard time believing that the spread of this information was totally devoid of malice and/or ill-will. For example, DCP says this:

I don't know for certain that it is so since I wasn't there and since nobody who was there has ever said anything about it, but I know for certain that homosexual behavior very often leads to excommunication, and I would be surprised to learn that it didn't play a role in Quinn's case.

(emphasis added)

For DCP and his pals to be chatting (casually, in his words) about something which they knew would cause Quinn harm demonstrates, to me, that they wished him ill on some level. And Quinn was most certainly pained by his excommunication, as he has stated:

"when you're a believing Mormon, to be excommunicated is like a form of death. It's like attending your own funeral." (source: Under the Banner of Heaven, pg. 339)