What is the worst thing for apologists to defend?

[_Tarski]

Cop out. make it mean something to me; tell the story.
Have you got you own little cult or something? I was an active Latter-day Saint for 35 years. Why shouldn't I have ever heard of a God that you have heard of?

Look, here is a simple question Old Testament two.

1. How does one determine that a being is omnipotent just from seeing them?
2. What happened to the oft heard idea that there is only one God with which we have to do?
3. Do you know the distinction between veridical and nonveridical?

Telling the story would require revealing things about myself my closest friends and family don't know, I'm not sharing them here.

I hadn't heard of them till I met them. There was something I needed to know.

I hate to say it but a deep need is often at the base of delusion or even hallucination.

What does being in an organization have to do with knowing something? What they teach in Church is the foundation. You build from there.

But you are just contradicting a foundation it seems.

1. Holy Ghost telling you and the whole being overwhelmed feeling and barely being able to move afterwards.

Sounds suspiciously neurological. Emotional stress or need?

2. There is One and Three and many more.

But none of the others have anything to do with us it is said frequently by leaders.

3. Do now, not seeing the relevance though.

Really? The difference makes all the difference in your case.

[_The Nehor]

I hate to say it but a deep need is often at the base of delusion or even hallucination.

But you just contradicting a foundation it seems.

Sounds suspiciously neurological. Emotional stress or need?

But none of the others have anything to do with us it is said frequently by leaders.

Really? The difference makes all the difference in your case.

(Sorry I didn't put your quotes next to my answers, they match line to line)

I don't think I needed it, I was actually more at peace right before this moment than probably at any other time in my life.

Contradicting the foundation? Nah.

Not stressed or needy at the time, I was happy. Would you be more likely to believe me if I told you the experience had no physical effect on me. That while Moses seeing Christ left him insensate for hours my (far lesser) experience had no effect.

Leaders say a lot of things. The 'only God with which we have to do' was pulled from an Adam-God talk. I also think the 'be in the world but not of the world' paraphrase is an abuse of Scripture no matter how often it's quoted.

Not following you.

[_Tarski]

I hate to say it but a deep need is often at the base of delusion or even hallucination.

But you just contradicting a foundation it seems.

Sounds suspiciously neurological. Emotional stress or need?

But none of the others have anything to do with us it is said frequently by leaders.

Really? The difference makes all the difference in your case.

(Sorry I didn't put your quotes next to my answers, they match line to line)

I don't think I needed it, I was actually more at peace right before this moment than probably at any other time in my life.

Contradicting the foundation? Nah.

Not stressed or needy at the time, I was happy. Would you be more likely to believe me if I told you the experience had no physical effect on me. That while Moses seeing Christ left him insensate for hours my (far lesser) experience had no effect.

Leaders say a lot of things. The 'only God with which we have to do' was pulled from an Adam-God talk. I also think the 'be in the world but not of the world' paraphrase is an abuse of Scripture no matter how often it's quoted.

Not following you.

You said you needed to know something. That's a need isn't it? Perhaps unconciously the need was urgent.
What more likely, that you brain misfired for one of a dozen reasons or that you really saw a God?

(All you TMB's reading this, let is me an object lesson as to why you shouldn't trust a profound spiritual experience)


The point is that anomolous perceptions are not known to be veridical on the basis of how they made you feel. Or on how real they seemed. Quite the contrary. You have every reason to doubt it and no reason to believe it.
You would be in the same position if you experienced an alien abduction one night. This kind of stuff happens all the freaking time. Don't be fooled.

[_The Nehor]

You said you needed to know something. That's a need isn't it? Perhaps unconciously the need was urgent.
What more likely, that you brain misfired for one of a dozen reasons or that you really saw a God?

(All you TMB's reading this, let is me an object lesson as to why you shouldn't trust a profound spiritual experience)


The point is that anomolous perceptions are not known to be veridical on the basis of how they made you feel. Or on how real they seemed. Quite the contrary. You have every reason to doubt it and no reason to believe it.
You would be in the same position if you experienced an alien abduction one night. This kind of stuff happens all the freaking time. Don't be fooled.

I needed to know something for something that hadn't happened yet and I had no idea why I needed to know it or even that the knowledge existed or in what circumstance I would need it. So either it was a spiritual experience or my unconcious or subconcious mind can see the future and make up amazing stuff.

The perception wasn't an anomaly in my life. Similar things have happened before and since. So either I'm insane and you're right or this stuff happening all the freaking time means something. Call me biased but I'm gonna go with what I've experienced over you trying to explain it away.

[_Runtu]

What more likely, that you brain misfired for one of a dozen reasons or that you really saw a God?

I suspect the answer to this question depends on your belief in God or lack thereof. Someone who already believed that God is real and manifests himself to humans would consider a godly visitation more likely.

[_Some Schmo]

So this is what I mean by "in denial."

Being in denial about something doesn't mean you deny it to others, it's about denying it to your conscious self, and is a very tough thing to break with its intrinsic unawareness.

I don't see what I'm denying. I never admitted your version of reality is more correct :)

Of course not, otherwise you wouldn't be in denial about it.

I've often wondered what I'm in denial about given its intrinsic nature. I think that when we have those "a ha!" moments about ourselves, we're shedding a small bit of the body of denial we all carry. It's the willingness to do so that matters.

[_Tarski]

What more likely, that you brain misfired for one of a dozen reasons or that you really saw a God?

I suspect the answer to this question depends on your belief in God or lack thereof. Someone who already believed that God is real and manifests himself to humans would consider a godly visitation more likely.

I don't think so.
Most people, believers or not, know that the brain is an imprefect organ subject to error, delusion and hallucination. Its a mundane fact exhibited each day in ordinary people, not to mention in the asylums.
On the other hand, not many people, believers or not, expect to see God (or even weirder, a God that is not God or Jesus or any God we have heard of)

A brain malfuntioning is as common as a computer malfunctioning.

[_The Nehor]

Of course not, otherwise you wouldn't be in denial about it.

I've often wondered what I'm in denial about given its intrinsic nature. I think that when we have those "a ha!" moments about ourselves, we're shedding a small bit of the body of denial we all carry. It's the willingness to do so that matters.

I can see this discussion getting circular very, very fast. You're in DENIAL!! NO!!! You are!!!

So to speed things up by saying, "YOU'RE IN DENIAL"-infinity. I win

Seriously though, I like "a ha!" moments. Many happen in meditation or prayer.

[_Sethbag]

Actually, when it comes right down to it, the toughest thing that any apologist has to defend is their own intellectual honesty.

That's why it's difficult to take them seriously and not view them as liars, in denial, or simply stupid (or at least, intellectually deficient).

That's a dangerous assertion, because it's so much more complex than that. Most of us former TBMs on this forum used to be this exact same way. There's a very good reason why I was a believer in Mormonism for the first 36 of my 38 years, and it's not that I was stupid, or a liar. The mental conditioning and repetition, and indoctrination create blind spots which are only penetrated clearly with great effort, and one sometimes has to be lead to that point line by line, precept on precept.

For some people, the conditioning is too ingrained, and there really are no approaches left that can help the person learn to see around the blindspots. I'm convinced there are some people who simply cannot, literally, ever be convinced of the truth anymore, and it's a function of the state X years of Mormonism has left their brains in, and the sort of person they are in the first place. I think it takes a certain level of innate curiosity to ever be able to penetrate the BS and see the truth, and people who don't have it, probably never will.

Mormonism isn't the only offender in this regard. Take any dyed in the wool Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Evangelical, Hindu, Muslim, or what have you, and they'll often be incapable of seeing the flaws in their own belief system, however clearly they may see the flaws in everyone elses, just like the TBMs are. It's not a Mormon thing, per se. It's a religion thing. I'm with Dawkins on this one.

[_Runtu]

What more likely, that you brain misfired for one of a dozen reasons or that you really saw a God?

I suspect the answer to this question depends on your belief in God or lack thereof. Someone who already believed that God is real and manifests himself to humans would consider a godly visitation more likely.

I don't think so.
Most people, believers or not, know that the brain is an imprefect organ subject to error, delusion and hallucination. Its a mundane fact exhibited each day in ordinary people, not to mention in the asylums.
On the other hand, not many people, believers or not, expect to see God (or even weirder, a God that is not God or Jesus or any God we have heard of)

A brain malfuntioning is as common as a computer malfunctioning.

Well, sure, most people understand that, but it's a matter of expectations. If one expects God to make himself manifest, one will interpret events as God showing himself, no matter how unlikely it really is.