116 pages

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_guy sajer
_Emeritus
Posts: 1372
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:16 am

Re: 116 pages

Post by _guy sajer »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Calculus Crusader wrote:(This was originally posted to free-saints by Bill Barton on 5/1/2001)

It's not hard to figure out what happened to the pages.

Martin Harris intended to mortgage his farm to finance the printing of the Book of Mormon. Martin ignored pleadings from his wife Lucy not to endanger their future in this reckless manner.

So when Martin brought the pages home to convince his wife of their worth, Lucy took them and burned them. No pages, no book, no mortgage.

Joseph's problem at that point was not the pages at all, rather his problem was Martin Harris. If Joseph tried to reproduce what he had dictated, he would certainly miss some details, and Martin would certainly pick up on some of that. Joseph wasn't willing to engage in this scenario, so he had another revelation of convenience directing him not to reproduce the pages at all.

Martin did eventually mortgage 151 acres of his farm to Book of Mormon publisher Grandin. The deal was that Martin had to pay the $3000 printing charge within 18 months (for 5000 leather-bound Book of Mormon) or Grandin could sell the land.

Joseph of course had no intention of ever repaying the loan. So when Martin panicked because the books weren't selling, Joseph had another revelation that Martin shouldn't be concerned about such temporal things.

Eventually Martin was forced to sell the 151 acres himself. On April 7,
1831 he deeded them over to early Palmyra settler Thomas Lakey. As part of the deal Martin had to vacate the farmhouse within a month. On May 27 Martin Harris joined the march to the promised land of Kirtland, following the person who had ruined his marriage and bilked him out of his property.

Martin later sold the remaining portions of his farm. He had deeded 80 acres to his wife Lucy in 1825.

The average Mormon will likely give a million dollars to the LDS leaders over 30 years (allowing for 5% compounded interest). And if he ever comes to his senses and leaves, it will possibly/likely cost him his marriage.
So the experience of Martin Harris established an important early paradigm.

See Vogel, "Early Mormon Documents Vol. 3" for documentation concerning the Harris farm.


Bill Barton also suggested that Mormons buy a picture of Martin Harris and stare at it intently while saying to themselves, "I'm entrusting my salvation to this fool?" :)



Bill Barton is free to speculate like anyone else. Solid proof is preferred however to his ramblings. I wonder how much money Barton gives to his Church and if he stares at a picture of an empty tomb wondering where the solid evidence is for his faith.


Touche Jason!

by the way, I quite liked your newest movie, although the wobbly camera made me a bit disoriented at times.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_KimberlyAnn
_Emeritus
Posts: 3171
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:03 pm

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

guy sajer wrote:Jesus Humbert Christ...


I always wondered what the "H" stood for!

KA
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Post by _Inconceivable »

why me wrote:Actually, Joseph Smith starring into a hat is actually very faith promoting.


No. Not even remotely faith promoting. It is faith DISTURBING, DISTRESSING and DESTROYING.

Every Mormon alive has seen the same visual aide that "speaks a thousand words". Every Mormon new beyond a shadow of a doubt that he sat at the table with his finger on the golden plates. There it was.


Not one of those thousand words spoken inferred that he stuck his face in a hat between his legs. It was only after the evidence mounted so severly against the painting that the powers that be indirectly admitted that it was a fraud.

In another 5 years, what will they be admitting to? Will the upcoming testimonies of fraud promote your faith as well??

"Faith promoting"!!?
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

The Book of Mormon witnesses are not credible as a whole. We have already discussed what a dupe Martin Harris was, but the other witnesses had close ties to Joseph Smith and each other. Why didn't Joe (or Moroni) diversify, instead of calling on half of the Whitmer clan and his BFF Oliver Cowdery?
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Re: 116 pages

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Jason Bourne wrote:

Bill Barton is free to speculate like anyone else. Solid proof is preferred however to his ramblings. I wonder how much money Barton gives to his Church and if he stares at a picture of an empty tomb wondering where the solid evidence is for his faith.


Unlike Joe and dupe Harris, Peter and the rest did not try to turn a profit by selling the rights to their story.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_Gillebre
_Emeritus
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:56 am

Post by _Gillebre »

Well if someone can't be a witness to an angelic visitation, then in what way would angels be proven to have visited other than the word of those who saw?

You can't "empirically" study or otherwise "prove" that angels visit the earth, so does that mean because YOU can't prove it, scientifically, it can't happen? And anyone who claims to have actually seen an angel is subject to severe mistrust and questionable credibility?


Besides, "evidence" of murder or whatever crime or not, if someone didn't WITNESS them in the act and the person wasn't caught at the scene or fleeing, or whatever else, then HOW is it that we could catch them?

If someone didn't witness the man kidnapping the child, or the robber running from the local gas station, to provide a description of him (supposing cameras didn't do a good enough job), then HOW do we identify him?

Witnesses.

We rely on them when science just won't give us a "face" for someone or the empirical and "undeniable" proof we need.

My question from before remains unanswered. If there were as many witnesses for a murder, rape, or otherwise criminal activity as there were for the Book of Mormon, what would the outcome be, you imagine? Would the judge just dismiss their testimony because they can't be trusted as perfectly objective witnesses, or the like? I highly doubt it.

As far as the witnesses and their "doubts" well who the flip wouldn't doubt themselves or what they'd seen if they saw GOLDEN PLATES or an ANGEL? If you saw what they claim to have seen, wouldn't you be a little weirded out or otherwise unsure of how or by what means you were able to see them?

Regardless of their personal qualms about how or by what means they "saw" the angel or the plates, their signature is proof of their witness of what they saw. If they didn't see it, then they shouldn't have signed it. But their john handcock is one proof towards the Book of Mormon's origin - they signed it.

Would you still discredit them as you do, if all of them had denied what they saw?
Gillebre

Apprentice Apologist
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Gillebre wrote:Regardless of their personal qualms about how or by what means they "saw" the angel or the plates, their signature is proof of their witness of what they saw. If they didn't see it, then they shouldn't have signed it. But their john handcock is one proof towards the Book of Mormon's origin - they signed it.

Would you still discredit them as you do, if all of them had denied what they saw?


Are you always this gullible, or do you reserve it for religious subjects? You're registering well off the dial on this one.

Just because they signed something saying they saw something doesn't mean they actually saw something. There are numerous recorded signed hands-on-the-Bible testimonies of people saying they saw UFO's... and Elvis... and purple dragons... so what? That doesn't mean they did.

Produce the plates, the breastplate, the sword, the urim and thummin... anything with some substance to it, because even a hundred witnesses just don't have any credibility, when it comes to the unverifiable.
_Mercury
_Emeritus
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm

Post by _Mercury »

Gillebre wrote:What do we rely on in criminal court cases, today?

...Witnesses. Right?


We rely on them to corroborate the story or contradict the claims, or stories of those who are accused/on trial, do we not?


So how are the witnesses of the Book of Mormon any different from those who saw a murder, a rape, or a man rob a bank, or anything else?


If there were as many witnesses for a murder, rape, or theft trial as there were for the Book of Mormon, what would the outcome be, do you imagine?


You can't dismiss witnesses used in the past and then rely on them now as "different by the times" or whatever else. People who were witness to acts, visions, or anything else in the past are no less credible, reliable, or relevant than someone who saw a murder, or abuse.

Can you honestly tell me that someone who witnesses something 175+ years ago and someone who witnesses something today are any different? If yes, then how so, and what reasoning or logic do you base that on?


Character witnesses are oft wrong. When large amounts of alcohol is added to end a 24 hour fast ones character is not only suspect but is glaringly incorrect.

Spiritual manifestations and grasping at straws stresses a persons testimony past the point of shattering. Suggestibility and taking advantage of another can be done when the mark is sufficiently intoxicated.

Not so good of an apologist, are you?
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Gillebre
_Emeritus
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:56 am

Post by _Gillebre »

Did I claim to be "a good apologist"?

No. I did not.


You don't seem to be a very good anti-mormon, because the LDS Church seems to keep growing. I mean, if we have people like you here everyday trying to spread the horrible truth about Mormonism, how is it continuing to prosper in it's dark secrets?

Dismiss witness as you like, but my point stands that if there were as many witnesses for a murder trial or something similar, as there were for the Book of Mormon, someone wouldn't be walking free for their crime. ;)
Gillebre

Apprentice Apologist
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Gillebre,

People swear to have witnessed all sorts of crazy stuff in this world. Victims have sworn in courts of law that individual X committed a violent act upon them, only to have it disproved by circumstantial evidence.

You need to do some reading about the reliability of witness testimony. It's about the most unreliable type of evidence there is. Here's one place to start:

http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/e ... emory.html



Australian eyewitness expert Donald Thomson appeared on a live TV discussion about the unreliability of eyewitness memory. He was later arrested, placed in a lineup and identified by a victim as the man who had raped her. The police charged Thomson although the rape had occurred at the time he was on TV. They dismissed his alibi that he was in plain view of a TV audience and in the company of the other discussants, including an assistant commissioner of police. The policeman taking his statement sneered, "Yes, I suppose you've got Jesus Christ, and the Queen of England, too." Eventually, the investigators discovered that the rapist had attacked the woman as she was watching TV - the very program on which Thompson had appeared. Authorities eventually cleared Thomson. The woman had confused he rapist's face with the face the she had seen on TV. (Baddeley, 2004).


Experiments conclusively demonstrate that eyewitness testimony is highly fallible, particularly when the subject is experiencing some sort of intense emotion.

You'd better hope if you're ever charged with a crime, and an eyewitness is the only evidence against you, that the jury is better informed than you are in regards to just how reliable such testimonies are.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20010516.html

The conventional wisdom, particularly among non-lawyers, is that circumstantial evidence is generally less reliable than eyewitness testimony. People sometimes say that a case is "only circumstantial" to mean that the evidence is weak. A strong case, according to this view, includes the testimony of an eyewitness.

In fact, contrary to popular opinion, circumstantial evidence is often extremely reliable. Blood of the victim that makes a DNA match with blood found on the defendant's clothing, credit card records that place the defendant at the scene of the crime, and ballistics analysis that shows a bullet removed from the victim to have been fired from the defendant's gun are all forms of circumstantial evidence. Yet, in the absence of a credible allegation of police tampering, such evidence is usually highly reliable and informative.

At the same time, numerous psychological studies have shown that human beings are not very good at identifying people they saw only once for a relatively short period of time. The studies reveal error rates of as high as fifty percent — a frightening statistic given that many convictions may be based largely or solely on such testimony.

These studies show further that the ability to identify a stranger is diminished by stress (and what crime situation is not intensely stressful?), that cross-racial identifications are especially unreliable, and that contrary to what one might think, those witnesses who claim to be "certain" of their identifications are no better at it than everyone else, just more confident.


http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2007/05/ ... stimon.php

Bad eyewitness identifications contributed to 75 percent of wrongful convictions in cases that were overturned by DNA evidence.

Given these dismal statistics, some states have tried to fix their procedures for eyewitnesses. New Jersey, for example, used to do police lineups the standard way: witnesses identified suspects from an in-person lineup as detectives stood next to them. The police officers would sometimes offer words of encouragement. New Jersey has now done away with the lineup, and instead presents people one after the other. This is supposed to prevent witnesses from making "relative judgments about which individual most looks like the perpetrator."

From the perspective of neuroscience, eyewitness testimony is an extremely unreliable type of evidence. The first reason is that our vision is vulnerable to all sorts of top-down influences, which alter (corrupt, some might say) the actual inputs witnessed by our eye. To paraphrase Paul Simon, "A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest." This doesn't mean that our senses aren't rooted in reality, but it does suggest that we shouldn't place too much trust in the details of perception, especially when the event in question happened fast, from a distance, and in bad lighting.

The second reason eyewitness testimony is unreliable has to do with the nature of memory. Neuroscience now knows that every time we remember a memory, that memory is "reconsolidated," slyly remade and reconfigured. The idea of reconsolidation should make us distrustful of our memories. They do not directly represent reality. Instead, they are an imperfect copy of what actually happened, a Xerox of a Xerox of a mimeograph of the original photograph. This directly contradicts an underlying assumption of eyewitness testimony, which assumes that our memories are immutable impressions, locked away in the brain's vast file cabinet. Recalling the memory shouldn't change the original memory.

But it does change the memory. The very act of remembering what you saw changes the neural substrate of the original memory trace. For more on this research, check out the work of Karim Nader.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Post Reply