I think it will be for members and the general public. And I have no doubt it will be better and more reliable the bagley's book.
Sure, just like the Nazi's authoring a book about the Holocaust. [/quote]
Let me see. We have the fool PP theorizing that Oxford Press will be part of such a poor and sloppy product. Now can you all say, where is your stupid sign?
Why not allow outside unbiased authors full access to the "secret" archives of TSCC?
I cannot see how 80+ Mormons could not have been given orders by leaders to commit such an atrocity. Not just any leaders, but influencial leaders. Perhaps not leaders but one leader. A Revelator that spoke for God Himself. One that wielded the authority to Trump the accepted commandments of God.
YOU may not be able to. Are you unbaised? I can see how the people in Cedar City would have followed the lead of their local leader quite easily. And then we have 80 out of how many who did not particpate out of the community? Unless you all can prove the top dogs ordered it I think you are howling in the wind.
The murderers went unpunished in this life, having been hidden within a church that should have called them out. How could a church that taught against secret combinations (organized crime) parallel it's definition?
I agree with you and this is the strongest case against the top leaders. On the other hand, human nature given what it is I can see that they might have not pursued it vogorously. In their minds maybe after the mockery of the trial for the murderers of the Smiths as well as to lack of any punishemnt for the people who drove them out of Missouri and Illinois they felt justified.
NOW DON"T DISTORT THIS TO SAY I THINK THEY WERE. They were not at all. Any I hold out that at least BY and the leaders should have taken more responsibility given the high inflammatory rhetoric they lent to the tinder box in Utah at the time.
It's been a while since I read on the topic, but, If I recall correctly, not only were the perps never brought to church justice (with one exception, of course) but they actually continued to be given important callings in the church as well. Am I misremembering?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:It's been a while since I read on the topic, but, If I recall correctly, not only were the perps never brought to church justice (with one exception, of course) but they actually continued to be given important callings in the church as well. Am I misremembering?
According to the article above the SPs were ex'd and some of the perps went in hiding and were hunted by the law.
I'm going to look more into this. As to going into hiding, one would have to be careful to differentiate between going into hiding due to being polygamous, and going into hiding because of MMM. For example, I found this summary about Jacob Hamblin (who denied involvement but was probably lying):
Hamblin continued to serve as a missionary to the Native American tribes in the Southern Utah area. Following enactment of Edmunds Act of 1882, an arrest order was issued naming Hamblin and others known to practice polygamy. Hamblin moved his families from Utah into Arizona and New Mexico and some even moved into Chihuahua, Mexico. Until his death on 31 August 1886, Hamblin was usually moving from one family to another to evade federal officers and see to the needs of his widespread family. He had four wives: Lucinda Taylor (married April 1839, separated February 1849); Rachel Judd (married 30 September 1849); Sarah Priscilla Leavitt (married September 1857); Louisa Boneli (married 16 November 1865). He fathered twenty-four children and had several adopted children. His lasting legacy was as a missionary and friend to the Native Americans, helping smooth relations between them and the more recent arrivals to the land.
Even the Deseret News gave a description of the massacre on August 5, 1875.61 Whitney, by contrast, while agreeing that Colonel Isaac C. Haight had ordered the Mormon militia to march to the massacre site under command of Major John M. Higbee, wrote that it was only "on a mission of mercy to bury the dead and protect the survivors." Supposedly "others came upon the scene," lured to the meadows to bury the dead, "and some of these also took part" in the butchery that followed. Baskin commented that no sensible person could accept such a ridiculously absurd scenario.62 He countered that besides Lee, those who had actually planned the massacre escaped punishment. Colonel William H. Dame, commander of the Iron County Brigade of the Nauvoo Legion, Haight, and Higbee all retained their militia commands, and Dame remained president of the LDS Parowan Stake until 1880. Higbee and Haight were excommunicated in 1870, together with Lee, but Brigham Young reinstated Haight in 1874. Haight, Higbee, Dame, and Bishop Philip Klingensmith were indicted with Lee, but all of them fled prosecution. Klingensmith eventually surrendered and turned state's evidence at Lee's first trial, but Haight died in exile, still protected by church leaders. Prosecutor Sumner Howard dropped the charges against Dame in 1876, apparently as part of the deal with LDS authorities allowing Howard to convict Lee. A local court dismissed the charges against Higbee after Utah achieved statehood. "None of the other fifty-two Mormon participants were ever disciplined by the church," Baskin observed
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
If you have evidence that Jacob Hamblin participated in the massacre, I, for one, would be interested in seeing it.
I've never heard any serious accusation to that effect.
I didn't say he participated. I speculated that, despite his denials, he was involved - most likely in the cover-up.
Hamblin didn't participate in the massacre, but he did (in his role as the mission president to the southern Utah Indians) accompany the southern Utah Indian chiefs to Salt Lake City to meet with BY on Sept. 1, during which meeting (according to Dimick Huntington) BY instructed the Indians to take the cattle on the south route. To the extent this meeting reflects a strategy to shut down the Utah trails to emigrant trains (such as the Fancher train), then Hamblin did have some knowledge of what was going on before the Fancher train was attacked.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)