John Gee's book review and thoughts:

[_Yong Xi]

I understand that BYU has a mission, though I disagree with it, and I believe BYU actively stifles intellectual freedom,

The thing that is odd about this is that I have you on record in the prior iteration of this board advocating the use of government power to suppress the free expression of Mormon and Islam religious thought. Whereas you complain about free expression at BYU, you don't have a problem with suppressing the faith of your family. Why is that?

rcrocket

in my opinion, comments by one poster about another poster's family is inappropriate and in bad form.

[_Daniel Peterson]

It looks like we have some things in common.

Other than my superstitious irrationality, of course, I'm sure we do.

I had no help on my dissertation; I floundered and produced a piece of junk. But my advisor was good for one thing; he promised to get me through the process, and he did, in less than 5 years. I thereafter buried my disseration and hope nobody ever dredges it up.

My dissertation took forever, partially because it was far, far too ambitious, and partly because I had virtually no time to spend on it. I basically surveyed the history of several important philosophical or cosmological ideas -- the other fields I seriously flirted with when heading off to college were astronomy and cosmology; I even applied to Caltech, near my home -- from Plato and Aristotle up through Plotinus and the other Neoplatonists, as well as some of the early Christian church fathers, into early Islamic theology and philosophy, preparatory to discussing those ideas as they appear in the work of Ahmad Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani, a rather mysterious figure who served as theorist and secret agent for the revolutionary Egyptian Fatimid regime and disappeared in 1021 AD.

The dissertation was well-received. It even won a Best Dissertation Award from the Middle East Studies Association of North America. But I've always felt deeply uncomfortable with it, partly because I don't think there are fully three people in European and North American scholarship who are qualified to pronounce it good, but mainly because, even if they're not, I'm acutely aware of several places in the dissertation where, although I was making my best guess, I'm not sure that my best guess is right. So I've never published it -- though I hope, someday, to revisit those issues with my hopefully more mature and seasoned judgment and then to bite the bullet and publish it in substantially revised form.

My advisor, though of no help writing, had a good view of the disseration, "It's the price you pay to join the guild. If it's the best piece of work you do, you're in trouble. Get it done, move on, and do better work in the future." I tried to keep his injunction in mind, and I like to think I succeeded.

I've advised a number of people doing dissertations not to do what I did: They should do what they have to do to qualify for a doctorate, but they shouldn't imagine that they need to cover absolutely everything or to revolutionize their fields. That's a besetting sin of mine; my articles tend to be overly stocked with ideas. I'm continually amazed by some of the things I read. Many academics will write an entire article about something that I would have regarded as, at best, a subordinate argument in a much more (and, likely, too) complex and dense piece. I'm trying to overcome that tendency in myself. Doing so would certainly increase my publication quantity.

Though anyone who follows these boards would have an easy time figuring out who I am.

I figured it out once, out of curiosity. But I've since forgotten. (Rather an embarrassing thing for a veteran smear-campaign director such as myself to have done.) I didn't recognize your name -- which is not meant to indicate condescension, but merely reflects the fact that, at a university with 1200 or so fulltime faculty, there are many, past and present, that I don't know.

So that's the short version of my history.

Thanks for sharing it. I found it quite interesting.

Happy travels, and if you make it to Vienna, be sure to sample the pastries; best in the world, far better than the Krispy Kreme you're brandishing in your avatar.

I know Vienna somewhat, as well as their pastries. I'll be there briefly on this trip, but will certainly return to my favorite pastry shop.

Incidentally, just between you and me, I hate Krispy Kremes and I never buy or eat them. A legend has grown up about me, though, that represents me as so grotesquely obese that I risk interference with the seismic measurements at Caltech and probably affect weather patterns throughout the western United States. My enormous girth, which frightens children and stuns airlines, is explained by the fact that I essentially live at Krispy Kreme, with occasional forays to Chuck-a-Rama for dessert.

[_Yoda]

I hate Krispy Kremes and I never buy or eat them.

I've heard you comment on that before. I think Krispy Kremes are great, but you have to eat them hot. They're too greasy cold.

I didn't realize that Krispy Kreme was even in Utah. I didn't discover them until I moved to NC.

[_Yoda]

I understand that BYU has a mission, though I disagree with it, and I believe BYU actively stifles intellectual freedom,

The thing that is odd about this is that I have you on record in the prior iteration of this board advocating the use of government power to suppress the free expression of Mormon and Islam religious thought. Whereas you complain about free expression at BYU, you don't have a problem with suppressing the faith of your family. Why is that?

rcrocket

in my opinion, comments by one poster about another poster's family is inappropriate and in bad form.

Agreed.

[_rcrocket]

I understand that BYU has a mission, though I disagree with it, and I believe BYU actively stifles intellectual freedom,

The thing that is odd about this is that I have you on record in the prior iteration of this board advocating the use of government power to suppress the free expression of Mormon and Islam religious thought. Whereas you complain about free expression at BYU, you don't have a problem with suppressing the faith of your family. Why is that?

rcrocket

in my opinion, comments by one poster about another poster's family is inappropriate and in bad form.

You read a lot into my post. "Faith of your family" merely means Mormonism. "Faith of your fathers" "faith of your ancestors," etc. It is just an expression. I have no clue about anything about this familiy but he constantly volunteers information about it. I don't get personal beyond the four corners of a previous post.

My point with the good Dr. Sajer, and I am not willing to let it lie, is that in prior posts -- long ago -- he advocated the use of government power to squelch Mormonism. He didn't limit it by "when infringing upon civil rights." He's never claimed that Mormonism infringes upon civil rights.

He advocated the use of government power to put down unpopular and silly religious practices. I raise this only because he constantly harps on the suppression of freedoms at BYU. [We've had lots of discussions on this -- accreditation; tenure issues and the like.]

The simple fact is that he's all for freedom of expression if it comes to dissent within the Church or at BYU, but is not for unfettered freedom of worship when it comes to an unpopular religion.

rcrocket

[_Yoda]

I understand that BYU has a mission, though I disagree with it, and I believe BYU actively stifles intellectual freedom,

The thing that is odd about this is that I have you on record in the prior iteration of this board advocating the use of government power to suppress the free expression of Mormon and Islam religious thought. Whereas you complain about free expression at BYU, you don't have a problem with suppressing the faith of your family. Why is that?

rcrocket

in my opinion, comments by one poster about another poster's family is inappropriate and in bad form.

You read a lot into my post. "Faith of your family" merely means Mormonism. "Faith of your fathers" "faith of your ancestors," etc. It is just an expression. I have no clue about anything about this familiy but he constantly volunteers information about it. I don't get personal beyond the four corners of a previous post.

My point with the good Dr. Sajer, and I am not willing to let it lie, is that in prior posts -- long ago -- he advocated the use of government power to squelch Mormonism. He didn't limit it by "when infringing upon civil rights." He's never claimed that Mormonism infringes upon civil rights.

He advocated the use of government power to put down unpopular and silly religious practices. I raise this only because he constantly harps on the suppression of freedoms at BYU. [We've had lots of discussions on this -- accreditation; tenure issues and the like.]

The simple fact is that he's all for freedom of expression if it comes to dissent within the Church or at BYU, but is not for unfettered freedom of worship when it comes to an unpopular religion.

rcrocket

And Dr. Sajer is claiming that you quoted him out of context:

Robert, I don't wish to rehash this. You are now, as before, distorting what I said. Honestly, how many times do I need to clarify this for you? The context was the case in which religious belief infringed on the civil rights of others. I don't believe that religious belief is a blank check to do whatever one wants to whomever one wants. Rights conflict, in which case we must decide among them.

Since you can't seem to quote the source, and the only thing you seem to come up with is that he conversed with you regarding this "long ago", it's simply your word against his.

And since you have a penchant for being nasty to people, I'll give Dr. Sajer the benefit of the doubt.

[_Yong Xi]

I understand that BYU has a mission, though I disagree with it, and I believe BYU actively stifles intellectual freedom,

The thing that is odd about this is that I have you on record in the prior iteration of this board advocating the use of government power to suppress the free expression of Mormon and Islam religious thought. Whereas you complain about free expression at BYU, you don't have a problem with suppressing the faith of your family. Why is that?

rcrocket

in my opinion, comments by one poster about another poster's family is inappropriate and in bad form.

You read a lot into my post. "Faith of your family" merely means Mormonism. "Faith of your fathers" "faith of your ancestors," etc. It is just an expression. I have no clue about anything about this familiy but he constantly volunteers information about it. I don't get personal beyond the four corners of a previous post.


rcrocket

That's quite a stretch.

[_Trevor]

I too do not support 'unfettered freedom of worship' when it come to any religion, popular or not. I dearly hope that the freedom to seek Allah by blowing up my family is infringed upon, that the freedom to marry underage girls is infringed upon, and other such nonsense. I would also love it if the ID people were kept from peddling their religion through the abuse of theology masked as science in the classroom.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I would also love it if the ID people were kept from peddling their religion through the abuse of theology masked as science in the classroom.

I wonder which theology you think they're peddling. Please specify.

Among the leading ID theorists, so far as I can tell, Michael Behe is a Catholic, Michael Denton is a lapsed and apparently agnostic Protestant, and David Berlinski is an agnostic Jew. Those are three cases that come quickly to mind.

[_rcrocket]

That's quite a stretch.

You are free to find and take offense where you must.

The simple fact of the matter is that when it comes to the freedom of Mormons and Muslims to worship, there's a lot of hate on this board -- even to the point of advocating the use of government power. And, I contiue to reiterate that nastiness and insults don't attract the faithful to come and post on his board. Call me nasty if you will, if you wish, but my personal attacks are very rare. I just attack the hypocrisy and inanity of posts themselves. And will continue to do so.

Direct the insult to the post, not the poster.

rcrocket