Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

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simon southerton
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Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by simon southerton »

Hi Folks. I'm still lurking around Down Under, nice and safe from the temporary (hopefully) insanity in the US.
I thought I would share a post from my Facebook page, because there are several fossilized apologists who gain so much inspiration from this group.

...

For decades, Mormon scholars at BYU have believed the Semitic Nephite civilisation and the Maya civilisation were one and the same. According to these apologists, archaeological ruins throughout Mesoamerica bear witness to this claim. Preeminent LDS apologist, John Sorenson, has found hundreds of weak parallels between the Maya and the Nephites, and prominent Mormon apologists Daniel Peterson, Terryl Givens and Richard Bushman have praised Sorenson's Maya research from the rooftops. Meanwhile, Michael Coe, a leading scientific expert on the Maya, has said these claims are wishful thinking.

"๐™๐™๐™š ๐™—๐™–๐™ง๐™š ๐™›๐™–๐™˜๐™ฉ๐™จ ๐™ค๐™› ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™ข๐™–๐™ฉ๐™ฉ๐™š๐™ง ๐™–๐™ง๐™š ๐™ฉ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ ๐™ฃ๐™ค๐™ฉ๐™๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™œ, ๐™–๐™—๐™จ๐™ค๐™ก๐™ช๐™ฉ๐™š๐™ก๐™ฎ ๐™ฃ๐™ค๐™ฉ๐™๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™œ, ๐™๐™–๐™จ ๐™š๐™ซ๐™š๐™ฃ ๐™จ๐™๐™ค๐™ฌ๐™ฃ ๐™ช๐™ฅ ๐™ž๐™ฃ ๐™–๐™ฃ๐™ฎ ๐™‰๐™š๐™ฌ ๐™’๐™ค๐™ง๐™ก๐™™ ๐™š๐™ญ๐™˜๐™–๐™ซ๐™–๐™ฉ๐™ž๐™ค๐™ฃ ๐™ฌ๐™๐™ž๐™˜๐™ ๐™ฌ๐™ค๐™ช๐™ก๐™™ ๐™จ๐™ช๐™œ๐™œ๐™š๐™จ๐™ฉ ๐™ฉ๐™ค ๐™– ๐™™๐™ž๐™จ๐™ฅ๐™–๐™จ๐™จ๐™ž๐™ค๐™ฃ๐™–๐™ฉ๐™š ๐™ค๐™—๐™จ๐™š๐™ง๐™ซ๐™š๐™ง ๐™ฉ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐˜ฝ๐™ค๐™ค๐™  ๐™ค๐™› ๐™ˆ๐™ค๐™ง๐™ข๐™ค๐™ฃ, ๐™–๐™จ ๐™˜๐™ก๐™–๐™ž๐™ข๐™š๐™™ ๐™—๐™ฎ ๐™…๐™ค๐™จ๐™š๐™ฅ๐™ ๐™Ž๐™ข๐™ž๐™ฉ๐™, ๐™ž๐™จ ๐™– ๐™๐™ž๐™จ๐™ฉ๐™ค๐™ง๐™ž๐™˜๐™–๐™ก ๐™™๐™ค๐™˜๐™ช๐™ข๐™š๐™ฃ๐™ฉ ๐™ง๐™š๐™ก๐™–๐™ฉ๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™œ ๐™ฉ๐™ค ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™๐™ž๐™จ๐™ฉ๐™ค๐™ง๐™ฎ ๐™ค๐™› ๐™š๐™–๐™ง๐™ก๐™ฎ ๐™ข๐™ž๐™œ๐™ง๐™–๐™ฃ๐™ฉ๐™จ ๐™ฉ๐™ค ๐™ค๐™ช๐™ง ๐™๐™š๐™ข๐™ž๐™จ๐™ฅ๐™๐™š๐™ง๐™š."

During the 1990s, molecular genetic research began to reveal, in remarkable clarity, the true ancestry of Indigenous Americans. Research on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), a small portion of our genes which is passed from mothers to their offspring down the generations, showed that essentially all Native Americans today are descended from Asian ancestors. No Semitic DNA was detected.

When Thomas Murphy, Brent Metcalfe and myself pointed out this glaring problem 20 years ago, we were subjected to intense criticism and character assassination by BYU apologists. They said we were attacking a straw man; the widely held false belief (according to them) that Book of Mormon events occurred across the New World. Half a century of 'serious' and 'careful' BYU research had revealed the Book of Mormon story was limited to Mesoamerica. If you had been fooled into believing the Book of Mormon story was hemispheric in scope, like all the prophets and ordinary members were, you were a lazy reader. If this apologetics makes you feel a bit nauseous, it is because you have just been gaslighted.

When I first looked at genetic research on Native Americans in 1998, only a handful of Maya had been studied. I decided to take a closer look at what mtDNA research has revealed in the last 20 years.

Today, 1,108 Maya have had their mtDNA tested, including 138 individuals who died before Columbus arrived (Figure). Over 99.6% of Maya mtDNAs (lineages A -D) originated in Asia, entering the Americas over 15,000 years ago. Four lineages originated in Africa (lineage L) and one came from Europe (lineage H5). All five non-indigenous mtDNAs almost certainly arrived on a Spanish galleon. Not a single Maya mtDNA lineage was derived from Semitic populations in the Middle East. In other words, 100% of pre-Columbian Maya DNA is derived from Asia.

Image

Rather than challenging the science, BYU apologists have retreated to positions that require radical reinterpretations of LDS scripture. They now claim the descendants of Lehi were a small ruling class of elites, but they had luckless DNA. In spite of ruling for 1000 years, due to processes such as genetic drift, and bottlenecks caused by disease and wars etc, Lehi's Israelite DNA kept losing the genetic lottery. Today it has essentially become extinct, a bit like all the Old World technology the Nephites allegedly brought to the New World (steel, the wheel, horses, cattle, wheat etc), which has also never been found.

The mythical gold plates record was written by a people, and to a people, who have vanished.

If I have learned anything from the events of the last year, it is that beliefs based on emotion are virtually impervious to facts. Mormon apologists will carry their fossilized and racist views to their graves. Progress will occur, funeral by funeral. Our best hope is that the rising generation of Mormons shun the false history contained within the Book of Mormon and the 19th century white supremacy it perpetuates.

Selected references with links. (* good; ** better; ***best)
*Elwess, N. L. et al. 2015. Analysis of ancient mitochondrial DNA within the Tipu Maya Collection. Internet J. Biol. Anthropol. 8(1). http://ispub.com/IJBA/8/1/30723.
***Gonzalez-Oliver, A. et al. 2019. Genetic Overview of the Maya Populations: Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups. https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol_preprints/147
**Sochtig, J. et al. 2015 Genomic insights on the ethno-history of the Maya and the โ€˜Ladinosโ€™ from Guatemala https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/. ... 015-1339-1
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Simon Southerton is clearly ignoring compelling evidence that an extraterrestrial resurrected alien gathered up some golden plates that told the story of immigrant Jews who eventually became Christians and handed them over to a man convicted of various schemes to lighten the wallets of his neighbors who then ignored the plates and instead used a stone in a hat to "translate" the historical record that has NO PLAGIARISM WHATSOEVER from source material available to him.

eViDeNcE iS eViDEnCe aPoStAtEs

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wE nEgOtIaTe wItH bOmBs
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by Res Ipsa »

Hi Simon. As always, interesting information. Thanks for sharing it, and I hope you and yours are well.
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IHAQ
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by IHAQ »

Simon, I really think you'll change your position after watching the new Witnesses movie...

(Great post Simon, thanks for sharing)
Philo Sofee
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by Philo Sofee »

The new Witnesses film refutes everything Simon Southerton has noted here concerning DNA because we NOW have *visual* evidence (watch the movie if you think I am joking) that the plates were real. We get to see Joseph Smith actually take them and lug them, etc. So, science has not yet caught up with apologetics, which almost makes it appear as if science is ducking the power of Mormon evidence for the Book of Mormon..... the Mesoamerican cities are obviously Nephite and Lamanite, it's just that through time their names were changed (probably by the apostate Nephites) and so, we have no direct correlation of cities to the Book of Mormon, but this does not mean sometime in the future we will, therefore, the Book of Mormon is true as already noted by apologetics for Mesoamerica.
The fact that there are no museum artifacts is irrelevant to the reality that Nephites lived. We know they lived because they are talked about in the Book of Mormon where they lived in the "Narrow neck of land." This is Mesoamerica as all scholarship demonstrates. I mean it's obvious once you put on Nephite colored glasses that the Maya are the remnants of the Nephites/Lamanites. What critics lack is faith, not evidence. If we read Mesoamerica back into the Book of Mormon, everything in Mesoamerica is Book of Mormon evidence, DUH. What critics fail to do is read in context. But those of us who take the past seriously and don't monkey around with red herrings, ad hominims, and non sequiturs are already ahead of science on this one. We are just waiting for science to catch up to our impeccable evidence littered all over Mesoamerica.

Science always changes as new studies and evidence come out, so this DNA evidence has nothing to do against the Book of Mormon. We just need more time to keep uncovering more evidence that somehow will link to the Book of Mormon. That will occur, because we have evidence the Book of Mormon is the most true book in the world. Most true or most correct mean the same thing. Joseph Smith as a prophet, not as a man's opinion, expressed that prophetic opinion, therefore we rightly claim the evidence. Time is our friend here, what we need is faith. The DNA studies will wither and Joseph Smith will yet come out shining as a stellar example of a prophet against the odds. Science cannot prevail against God, He is the one who invented it in the first place. If there is not evidence yet, it is because LDS is being tested, not refuted. One cannot refute faith with evidence, it is not in the Lord's program.

(imitation mode of Mormon apologetics off now)

(always enjoy reading your post Simon! Thanks for the updating)
Last edited by Philo Sofee on Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Themis
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by Themis »

I don't think Simon has ever tried to be fair to the idea of Horton hears a Nephite. It would explain so much about why we haven't found the evidence of the Book of Mormon. Why do we always have to be so closed minded and think that the people of the Book of Mormon were humans of our size instead of whoville sized Nephites and Lamanites. If we could find them I bet we could test their "who" DNA to that of "who" people in the middle-east.
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by DrW »

Thanks for the update Dr. Southerton. Yet another slam dunk on Mormonism.
It is becoming apparent that the above named apologists are to the Book of Mormon as hard core Trumpsters are to their orange arch insurrectionist.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by Shulem »

simon southerton wrote: โ†‘
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:16 am
Our best hope is that the rising generation of Mormons shun the false history contained within the Book of Mormon and the 19th century white supremacy it perpetuates.

Indeed, white supremacy Mormon doctrine is foundational to the scriptures of the Church. White & Delightsome pretty much some up Mormon roots. From another Book of Mormon scripture:

Moses 7:8 wrote:For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.
Moses 7:22 wrote:And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
Hence, darker skinned people were loathed.
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Bought Yahoo
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by Bought Yahoo »

Dr. Sorenson was a heretic. He is not Mormonism.
simon southerton
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Re: Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya

Post by simon southerton »

Bought Yahoo wrote: โ†‘
Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:18 pm
Dr. Sorenson was a heretic. He is not Mormonism.
Then Daniel Peterson, Terryl Givens, Richard Bushman and all the other Sorenson Limited Geography sycophants are heretics too.
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