What is your best evidence for Joseph Smith sleeping with his wives?

[_karl61]

Another one bites the dust...

GOOOO SETHBAG!



Sethbag is ready
Sethbag is smooth
Sethbag will take control
And stomp all over you!
GOOOO SETHBAG!

I'm pretty sure the blonde girl on the right just winked at me. :)

and to think that her great grandparents were once dark skinned Lamanites. I guess they lived the "good" life.

[_Scottie]

Frankly, Will, considering that you view Pahoran's style of posting fine and dandy, it is shocking that you so easily took offense to seth's comments.

After a second reading, I've now sighed to myself and decided I've heard worse. That doesn't change the fact that it is nearly impossible to make someone like Seth recognize the subtle difference between his way of discussing these things and the method employed by people like The Dude, Chris Smith, and Dan Vogel. I understand that Seth feels very passionately offended by his interpretation of the history of "Sex in Nauvoo." The problem, as I see it, is that his interpretation is not the only way of looking at the so-called "facts" of the matter.

But above all, it was my mistake to even enter into a discussion of these things on this board. The feelings of the exmo crowd are much too strong and lurking too close to the surface for this topic to be discussed in a dispassionate manner. Kimberly Ann can only see vicious misogyny and Seth can only see rampant licentiousness.

The bottom line is that if I choose to post here in the future, I will strictly limit myself to the superficial in order to avoid scenes like this. As I once mentioned to Kimberly Ann, I love my heathen and apostate friends, but I've learned that there are just some things you avoid when in conversation with them. I must remember that rule when I choose to play in this sandbox.

Have a nice weekend, I'm off to the recording studio for an afternoon of bass guitar tracks ...

In other words, you have no defense to what Seth said, so you'll just cop out behind the tired old, "He'll never understand, so why try" excuse.

I happen to believe Seth is pretty open minded. It is possible to change his opinion, right Seth?

[_Sethbag]

Well, I certainly changed my mind about Joseph Smith and the truthfulness of the LDS church, didn't I? I've changed my mind on lots of things in my life, when I've been exposed to better evidence and better argument.

The thing is, Will knows, as do the more knowledgable of the mopologists, that the old argument that Joseph Smith didn't actually do these things simply doesn't work anymore. They're too well documented now for that attempt at evasion. Now, having done these things, and knowing that these things, on their face, go against usual LDS standards and ideas, the only way around Joseph Smith being a false prophet is to place the responsibility, and the accountability, for Joseph's actions at God's feet. By definition, in the LDS worldview, one cannot demand an accounting from God (ie: who am I to question God?). If it is believed that God did something, by definition that thing was right and proper. So Joseph Smith didn't really want to proposition married mens' wives. No, he would have avoided doing it if he could, but God made him do it! Yes, it was God's command that Joseph Smith do it. Just like disobeying an order in the military is unthinkable, when God commands, you'd better do it.

So I wrote what I wrote in my previous posts in this thread to simply highlight what this means.

God, according to LDS, ordered Joseph Smith to lie. God ordered Joseph Smith to manipulate. God ordered Joseph Smith to approach married women and tell them that it was OK with God if they received a secret ceremony and then enjoyed the marriage bed. God ordered Joseph Smith to marry the two Partridge sisters as soon as their resistance to his entreaties could be overcome, and God ordered Joseph Smith to hold a 2nd "sealing" ceremony with these girls in front of Emma to hide the fact that he'd already had these ceremonies behind her back. God wanted this. This was part of Joseph Smith's test, to see if he was ready for Godhood.

This is where the rubber hits the road. Celestial Marriage (meaning, back then, polygamy) was the way to exaltation. Joseph Smith, by not refusing God's command and "marrying" all these women, was passing his test and showing himself worthy of being a God. The fact that Joseph Smith had to lie to Emma Smith, his legal and lawful wife, about all of this, and go and do it all in secret, and behind her back, was obviously necessary because Emma wasn't ready to accept God's will, yet Joseph Smith couldn't disobey God, could he? Oh no, if Emma wouldn't go along with God's Will, Joseph Smith would just follow God's Will behind her back, and lie to her about it. You see? It wasn't Joseph's fault that he had to lie to Emma. It was Emma's own fault! "Look what you made me do!"

That is what you have to believe in order to get around the idea that Joseph was a philandering, selfish cad and brute of a man, utterly unworthy of all the praise heaped upon him by fawning members of the church. This is what it means. Joseph Smith's marrying and having sex with dozens of women, behind his wife's back, behind the husbands' backs of some of the women he slept with, was all part of proving to God that he had what it takes to be just like God, and live in the Celestial Kingdom just like God lives, with his whole big huge family of wives.

[_asbestosman]

God, according to LDS, ordered Joseph Smith to lie. God ordered Joseph Smith to manipulate.

Are you sure, or did God simply order the sealings? Did God order Joseph to lie, or did Joseph decide that's what it took to be obedient? Why could it not be that God commanded something for which Joseph could have done better in handling? Joseph already made some big mistakes with the translation by lending 116 pages. Why not more mistakes?

[_Maxrep]

God, according to LDS, ordered Joseph Smith to lie. God ordered Joseph Smith to manipulate.

Are you sure, or did God simply order the sealings? Did God order Joseph to lie, or did Joseph decide that's what it took to be obedient? Why could it not be that God commanded something for which Joseph could have done better in handling? Joseph already made some big mistakes with the translation by lending 116 pages. Why not more mistakes?

Well, that scenario is a remote possibility. At some point your brain takes the drivers seat and you realize that it is not your responsibility to create and maintain elaborate excuses for God, or the founder of this church. God can do better than Joseph, and so can we.

Sethbag, I love your posts because they are direct and insightful!

[_Jason Bourne]

Is ther anyone who argues that he did not sleep with many or most of his plural wives? Oh I know that some dispute that he consumated the marriages of the rather young ones or the polyandrous ones but not the others.

Yes, my daughter's seminary teacher told me a couple of months ago that Joseph Smith "married" women in name only as a charitable way to care for the mostly elderly wives. He said none were consummated.

Wow. Ok. I don't quite get it when we all know the polygamy Joseph Smith started and BY continued resulted in Children for BY and the others.

[_Pokatator]

I love to read the testimonies of the women who claimed that Joseph had slept with them. It took cajones to do that back in the late 19th century. And they weren’t any too ashamed of it, either. They were downright honored to have shared a bed with Joseph Smith.

Us good TBM guys have that effect on our women. If you don’t believe me, just ask my wife.

;-)

In the thread, Why is it so difficult for critics? Posted on: Aug 22 2006, 09:57 AM

Will wrote, in response to Juliann:

By the way, I just love the "Wrong-headed Wench" touch. I've been affectionately calling my wife "wench" for several years now, and I really appreciate the fact that you've provided me with a variation on the theme.

In the thread, On Hauglid & Metcalfe Posted on: Aug 20 2006, 11:10 PM

Will wrote:

How ironic. This is precisely what the topic was today in our gospel doctrine class.

It was a great lesson.

My wife did a great job! wink.gif

Of course, she copied a lot of her lesson from one I had given four years ago!

In the thread, Maritial Intimacy Posted on: Aug 18 2006, 02:02 PM

Will wrote:

I sure agree with you on this one.

Edit: And I have a 13-year-old daughter! Believe me, she understands what is moral and what is not. It's been spelled out with brutal clarity.

In the thread, Joseph Smith as a Descendant of Jesus Christ Posted on: Jul 12 2006, 05:11 PM

Will wrote:

You're right, I had forgotten some of the more "touching" aspects of the story.

The only thing I hate more is the "parable" of the father with the train track switch in his hands when his son appears ... every time someone starts into that one my wife and I just want to jump up and scream.

By the way, "Faith-Promoting Rumor" is an acronym with which I'm not familiar. Please define.

Will

P.S. My quasi-heathen wife just about split a gut over the "cheeseandrice" part.

Yes, Will you are a TBM and you really have an effect on your woman. And you are starting on your daughter, too. A real man among men, a man that didn't know what a circle jerk was until just recently. Do you know what GIB means? I am sure your wife doesn't unless she learned it somewhere else.

Maybe you should be a polygamist and have two "Wrong-headed Wenches" in your life and marry Juliann!

This is just small sample of your arrogant narcissism, would you like more examples?

[_Jason Bourne]

This type of argument is precisely why I think that a lot of arguments about God existing, because if not, where would we get morality from, are completely laughable. The LDS, if they believe like you, don't believe in an absolutely Right and Wrong at all. What LDS believe is Right and Wrong boils down to, essentially, whatever the current Prophet says is right, or wrong. You guys on the one hand will claim that there is an absolute source of ethics and morality, God, and on the other hand, that source is really, when it comes down to it, a man. You belong to one of those religions where the top dog, the President, the head honcho, has become your arbiter of right and wrong.

Honestly this is what I concluded as I studied polygamy. I would say "This sure does not seem like the God I was told to believe in." Really. I though that polygamy seemed very ungodly the way it was brought forth. Then when I read the letter from Joseph Smith to Nancy Rigdon and realized it was to persuade her to marry him I though "Wow, if God can say one thing is an abomination at one point then revoke it at another then the person who is telling us this is what God says really had a lot of power and better be right on the money." Problem was Joseph did not measure up especially with polygamy. Now I know he is human, and so are all who claimed God spoke to them. But there still seems that there should be a certain level of things that should be met to trust the person is doing what they say God says. Plural marriage failed for me mostly because it seemed that Joseph Smith used his power and pressured women to marry him and then sought to use his power to destroy them if they did not. So yea, I agree really.

Really now, the best your God can do is to publicly teach righteousness and chastity and fidelity within marriage, while privately commanding his Prophet on earth to violate these very principles and to have sex with the wives of other men, behind his own wife's back? Really? You honestly believe that? You honestly believe that God was OK with Joseph Smith lying about having "married" and slept with other women, not only to Emma, but to the public, and the rest of the church, when in fact he really had done it?

This was a futher problem for me. Here I have the Church saying that sexual sin is next to murder and really being pretty harsh about sexual sin and all but yet look at what the founder was doing? This is and has become a major conflict for me.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason,

This was a futher problem for me. Here I have the Church saying that sexual sin is next to murder and really being pretty harsh about sexual sin and all but yet look at what the founder was doing? This is and has become a major conflict for me.

And, rightly so. in my opinion, there are many such conflicts.

Jesus taught... "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." He taught, "inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these thy brethren, ye have done it unto me." He gave us the beatitudes. He taught each man that he should cleave unto his wife and no other. I could go on and on.

Then you have Joseph Smith & Co., who clearly forgot pretty much everything that Jesus taught and started screwing (I use this term figuratively and literally), with whomever they could get... lying, coercing, manipulating, deceiving.

~dancer~

[_Sethbag]

God, according to LDS, ordered Joseph Smith to lie. God ordered Joseph Smith to manipulate.

Are you sure, or did God simply order the sealings? Did God order Joseph to lie, or did Joseph decide that's what it took to be obedient? Why could it not be that God commanded something for which Joseph could have done better in handling? Joseph already made some big mistakes with the translation by lending 116 pages. Why not more mistakes?

As Maxrep says, sometimes your brain just takes over and you realize you're just making excuses for a guy who doesn't deserve it. You have to ask yourself, why the need to find a way out of this for Joseph and God? If the answer is "because I have a testimony of them" then BINGO! you've hit the nail on the head. You defend them, and you search for ways to defend them, because you already believe in them. Does it ever occur to you that that may be putting the cart before the horse?

Anyhow, let's play along and think about this. What is the story about what happened when Joseph lent out the 116 pages? As the story goes, God was mightily pissed off, and took away Joseph's gift. Joseph was forced to repent and humble himself before he could get his gift back and continue the translation. That's the story.

Now, how does that compare to the lies and the deceptions surrounding his polygamous ventures? Well, what if God hadn't actually told Joseph to keep things on the down low, behind Emmas back, and God didn't tell Joseph to lie about it. In that case, what Joseph did in lying and deceiving Emma and others would amount to actual lying and deception, blatant dishonesty, wouldn't it? Now, from the first time Joseph engaged in such lying and deception, do you suppose that God would continue empowering him to receive revelation and prophecy? Would God not be mightily pissed and remove Joseph's gift until he humbled himself and repented?

So, after Joseph had first started the lying and deceipt, is there any clue that Joseph's gifts stopped? Was he lying then, when he told that one girl that an angel had stood before him commanding him to marry her? How would Joseph know that God had given him such and such a woman, unless God were still talking with Joseph, and still sending him direct revelations? Without being able to blame the lying and the deception on God, how can you rationalize God continue to reveal more and more women to Joseph as his gifts from God, when the whole he's been manipulating people, lying to his wife and others, and using deceipt and keeping secrets about it? Would you not expect the 116 pages precedent to hold in this case, and for God to chastise Joseph and require repentance and humbling himself before he could continue to receive these revelations, and before he was worthy of yet more and more women being "given" to him?

I'm sorry, but I just can't buy it. You really can't blame the polygamy on God, but the lying and the deception on Joseph, and harmonize the fact that the polygamy was orchestrated by God through Joseph's prophetic and seerific gifts, while committing such egregious dishonesty and deception upon his own wife and others.

You must keep in mind that deception and dishonesty were par for the course with Joseph and his "plural marriage" ventures since the early 1830s in the Fanny Alger incident, all the way up until 1844 and Joseph's death. You'd have to convince me that it's reasonable that God would give Joseph such prolific gifts of prophecy, revelation, translation (Book of Abraham, Inspired Version, Book of Moses, etc.) throughout that time period, where simultaneously Joseph is telling some of the most self-serving, egregious whoppers imaginable, and betraying his own wife with sex with other women behind her back, behind the backs of the husbands of some of these women, etc. Is lying, deception, dishonesty, and scheming, conspiring with others to do the same, etc. part of God's plan? Is that really something you believe a true Prophet could engage in and continue to receive of God's gifts?