What is your best evidence for Joseph Smith sleeping with his wives?

[_Runtu]

Apologists who make that argument are dorks. Because here is the deal. You started to do the leg work on your own and when you did it was a WTF moment. So you were an adult when you started. Do they really expect a primary or mutual age kid to read Rough Stone Rolling, Mormon Enigma, BYU Studies and Dialogue? I was an adult that was a hobby apologist when the poop really hit the fan and I finally said that there is too much that I cannot defend in a number of areas, this one, polygamy, topping the list.

It's funny that we were so often told not to stray from the manual, not to listen to "alternative voices," and so forth. So, we did so, and then at some point when we did learn about troubling issues, we were told by the apologists that it was our own fault for being shocked by things we should have known all along.

Sounds like you, like me, got tired of making excuses. I have never understood why we're considered evil-speaking fault-finders because we find certain things troubling and incompatible with being God's mouthpiece.

[_beastie]

I think that lifers who live in Utah, or other heavily LDS populated states, are more likely to know that Joseph Smith actually practiced polygamy "all the way" due to cultural history than people like me - a life long easterner, convert to the church at 19. Back when I joined, with no internet, hardly any information in any library (except, of course, the church library) all I knew about the church's history was what the church chose to tell me. I knew that Joseph Smith had received the revelation to practice polygamy, and I knew that Emma was deeply, unalterably opposed to it and did not give her permission. I knew that this was a problem, and that Joseph Smith said he'd to into hell to retrieve Emma if need be, and I assumed that was why she was "in hell", whatever that meant in Mormon lingo. I believed that - out of respect for Emma and the belief that the first wife had to give her permission I believed Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy in this life, but that after his death lots of women had themselves sealed to him.

Since, as I said, the church was the sole source of information I had about Mormon history, I believe this is exactly what the leaders of the church wanted someone like me to believe.

Joseph Smith' polygamy is just too messy. Too many secrets, too many lies, too much polyandry. As unpleasant as some of BY's polygamy was, in this way, it was "cleaner", more upfront. There was still the issue of accepted the blasted principle in the first place, but with BY, you didn't have all that other baggage that went along with Joseph Smith' polygamy. So I think this is why the church is more comfortable with BY's polygamy than Joseph Smith's.

After the Tanners began printing information, the church did seem to slowly start addressing this information, as well, but it took a long time to trickle down to an eastern convert. I noticed this timeline when, on a MAD thread, apologists shared all these articles that openly addressed controversial subjects, and I realized they were all post Tanner dates.

[_Sethbag]

So, these women lied? All of them? I'm supposed to accept the word of the 11 witnesses that they saw the gold plates, but I'm supposed to believe that all these women made up stories about Joseph Smith?

Well, on the surface I'd have to go with you, but I'm sure Pahoran et. al. have good reasons for believing there's a lack of evidence on this. Pahoran may not be well liked, but he's pretty smart.

He may be pretty smart in general, but he's pretty stupid about religion, and particularly the Mormon church.

[_Pokatator]

Here is what I find so totally funny about this topic...

Lets say a married man down the street was arrested for the rape of a fourteen year old girl, she testifies that the man told her he would kill her family if she didn't have sex with him. She states that her parents knew of the arrangement but agreed to give her to the man so as not to be killed. Then all sorts of women in the neighborhood come forth with similar accusations. A letter is found written by the rapist trying to arrange a secret meeting with another woman. Several woman testify under oath in court that the man had sex with them and they were threatened to go along with it and not tell anyone, teenagers come forth with clear evidence that they too were propositioned and ultimately coerced into having sex with this man. Several of the man's best friends come forth and tell the courts how they tried to help him stop this perverted behavior, and one friend and his wife even caught him in the act in the barn.

The man denies it to the public but then evidence come forth and proves that the man did indeed behave as suggested. The man then claims it was all because God wanted him to behave in such a manner.

Would anyone give this guy a free pass? Would anyone come up with the excuses that are given to Joseph Smith? Would anyone think it was appropriate to justify this guy's behavior?

I just so do not get why Joseph Smith gets a free pass!

~dancer~

If I were a believer I think it would be better to go with the, "Joseph Smith was a horrible man but so were other prophets," rather than the, "he was a great man and nothing untoward happened," excuse. ;-)

dancer

I totally loved your post. It has always bothered me that rational and logic and for the most part intelligent people can't take a situation and remove the magic, the aura, the charisma of an individual and just look at the facts. The view becomes so clouded with emotion that the facts can't be seen, the followers become blinded.

If a common man and not a Godman (in the eyes of the followers) like Joseph Smith did what he did in his day I believe that he would have been hung or killed long before 1844.

If a common man did what Joe did today, a court of law would convict him. He'd be on a sexual predator list with an ankle bracelet at the least and most likely locked up for good. Personally, I'm a death penalty type guy. I believe that many in the community would want to kill him.

[_Yoda]

But at least even when I was a little kid I knew about polygamy and that it started with Joseph.

Like Jason, I did know about polygamy and that it began with Joseph. I wasn't aware of the gory details involving Fanny Alger. I had heard the story about Emma throwing Eliza Snow down the stairs because she caught her with Joseph in an embrace.

I never knew that Oliver Cowdry was excommunicated because he had accused Joseph of having an affair with Fanny. I was never actually really clear on why he was excommunicated...only that he was, and then later came back to the Church.

I knew NOTHING about polyandry until I stumbled upon it on the Internet a few years ago. And when I asked honest questions about it at FAIR, people were very nasty to me about it. It was actually Dale who took me under his wing, and realized that I wasn't a troll, and was serious about my question. He told me about the Law of Adoption, and that was his explanation for Joseph's polyandry.

To be honest, since I have begun this journey of really trying to find out the truth, all I have become is disheartened.

I honestly don't, and have never been able to believe that God, who is supposedly our Heavenly Father, would hate women so much that he would institute something as debasing and awful as polygamy.

I have honestly prayed and tried to understand "the principle of plural marriage" and have not been able to resolve my issues with it.

[_Runtu]

Like Jason, I did know about polygamy and that it began with Joseph. I wasn't aware of the gory details involving Fanny Alger. I had heard the story about Emma throwing Eliza Snow down the stairs because she caught her with Joseph in an embrace.

I never knew that Oliver Cowdry was excommunicated because he had accused Joseph of having an affair with Fanny. I was never actually really clear on why he was excommunicated...only that he was, and then later came back to the Church.

I knew NOTHING about polyandry until I stumbled upon it on the Internet a few years ago. And when I asked honest questions about it at FAIR, people were very nasty to me about it. It was actually Dale who took me under his wing, and realized that I wasn't a troll, and was serious about my question. He told me about the Law of Adoption, and that was his explanation for Joseph's polyandry.

To be honest, since I have begun this journey of really trying to find out the truth, all I have become is disheartened.

I honestly don't, and have never been able to believe that God, who is supposedly our Heavenly Father, would hate women so much that he would institute something as debasing and awful as polygamy.

I have honestly prayed and tried to understand "the principle of plural marriage" and have not been able to resolve my issues with it.

As Monson is wont to quote Mark Twain: "You can't pray a lie." You simply cannot ask God to override your conscience. It won't work. You know what is right and what is wrong, and that's all there is to it.

[_harmony]

But at least even when I was a little kid I knew about polygamy and that it started with Joseph.

Like Jason, I did know about polygamy and that it began with Joseph. I wasn't aware of the gory details involving Fanny Alger. I had heard the story about Emma throwing Eliza Snow down the stairs because she caught her with Joseph in an embrace.

I never knew that Oliver Cowdry was excommunicated because he had accused Joseph of having an affair with Fanny. I was never actually really clear on why he was excommunicated...only that he was, and then later came back to the Church.

I knew NOTHING about polyandry until I stumbled upon it on the Internet a few years ago. And when I asked honest questions about it at FAIR, people were very nasty to me about it. It was actually Dale who took me under his wing, and realized that I wasn't a troll, and was serious about my question. He told me about the Law of Adoption, and that was his explanation for Joseph's polyandry.

To be honest, since I have begun this journey of really trying to find out the truth, all I have become is disheartened.

I honestly don't, and have never been able to believe that God, who is supposedly our Heavenly Father, would hate women so much that he would institute something as debasing and awful as polygamy.

I have honestly prayed and tried to understand "the principle of plural marriage" and have not been able to resolve my issues with it.

The answer to that question when I asked it was clear: polygamy was never God's. Since then, I have never been conflicted about polygamy again. And since I allow no one to intercede in my relationship with God, I have no internal conflict.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Harmony...

The answer to that question when I asked it was clear: polygamy was never God's. Since then, I have never been conflicted about polygamy again. And since I allow no one to intercede in my relationship with God, I have no internal conflict.

Me too!

As a believer, I fasted, prayed, went to the temple with a sincere and heartfelt plea for understanding. Repeatedly the very clear answer that came to my heart and mind was... polygamy is not of God. Simple!

My further study has confirmed to my mind, that indeed, this system of mating is not in the best interest of humankind, society, individuals, or the furthering of the universe story! The harem lifestyle is archaic, primitive, and animalistic. It is a thwarting and reversing of what is a newer and higher sense of bonding, caring, intimacy, and love available in the human.

After spending years and years trying to figure it out, find a way to rationalize it, make it OK, or justify it somehow, I am now at peace.

~dancer~

[_Jason Bourne]

Apologists who make that argument are dorks. Because here is the deal. You started to do the leg work on your own and when you did it was a WTF moment. So you were an adult when you started. Do they really expect a primary or mutual age kid to read Rough Stone Rolling, Mormon Enigma, BYU Studies and Dialogue? I was an adult that was a hobby apologist when the poop really hit the fan and I finally said that there is too much that I cannot defend in a number of areas, this one, polygamy, topping the list.

It's funny that we were so often told not to stray from the manual, not to listen to "alternative voices," and so forth. So, we did so, and then at some point when we did learn about troubling issues, we were told by the apologists that it was our own fault for being shocked by things we should have known all along.

Sounds like you, like me, got tired of making excuses. I have never understood why we're considered evil-speaking fault-finders because we find certain things troubling and incompatible with being God's mouthpiece.

Yep. You are bad because you did not read but what caused the questions was, well, READING! Duh!

[_Jason Bourne]

I think that lifers who live in Utah, or other heavily LDS populated states, are more likely to know that Joseph Smith actually practiced polygamy "all the way" due to cultural history than people like me - a life long easterner, convert to the church at 19. Back when I joined, with no internet, hardly any information in any library (except, of course, the church library) all I knew about the church's history was what the church chose to tell me. I knew that Joseph Smith had received the revelation to practice polygamy, and I knew that Emma was deeply, unalterably opposed to it and did not give her permission. I knew that this was a problem, and that Joseph Smith said he'd to into hell to retrieve Emma if need be, and I assumed that was why she was "in hell", whatever that meant in Mormon lingo. I believed that - out of respect for Emma and the belief that the first wife had to give her permission I believed Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy in this life, but that after his death lots of women had themselves sealed to him.

Since, as I said, the church was the sole source of information I had about Mormon history, I believe this is exactly what the leaders of the church wanted someone like me to believe.

This is certainly a valid point. Converts only know what the missionaries teach. When you joined, the ability to dig deeper was much more difficult. Oh sure, you may have been able to go to a library and check out books, or go to the local Christian book store to see what they had on the Mormons. But most did not do that, and why would they? They trusted the nice young Elders who were teaching them. Now, an investigator can go online easily and many do and find more details before they commit. But many still don't.

Joseph Smith' polygamy is just too messy. Too many secrets, too many lies, too much polyandry. As unpleasant as some of BY's polygamy was, in this way, it was "cleaner", more upfront. There was still the issue of accepted the blasted principle in the first place, but with BY, you didn't have all that other baggage that went along with Joseph Smith' polygamy. So I think this is why the church is more comfortable with BY's polygamy than Joseph Smith's.

Excellent point.