Joseph's Swamp

[_Jersey Girl]

I think I may be able to find the date for the drainage. by the way, I don't see Joseph Smith as bi-polar at all. Maybe I'll start a new topic thread to bat that around. I'll post again here if I can come up with a date.

[_Jersey Girl]

I realize I'm a know-nothing never-Mo but in a nutshell...

The statement you quote regarding the healthfulness of the location was dated 1843.

Now back up the truck...

The land was purchased (except for 125 acres) in 1839 and while there are no specific dates given for the first attempts at draining the land, it is likely that it took place in the summer of 1839 just prior or during the first malaria outbreaks. And yes, Joseph lived in those same conditions, contracted malaria himself (as did his family members) took in some of the Saints into his own home while he and Emma slept in a tent for a time, so he wasn't subjecting the Saints to anything he was subjecting himself and his own family too. Essentially, the Saints were SOL, Nauvoo was affordable and had potential.

Did Joseph know it was swamp land? Yes, part of it was and this is indicated in his description of the land in (presumably) 1839.

The land (in it's entirety) was seen as a desireable potential port for commerce.

The letter that you posted (sickly death hole) was a maneuver on Joseph's part to deflect an interest payment (1841?)from the seller. Joseph knew the seller had no better option than to let the Saints make improvements on the land, the seller was agreeable to deferred payments on the land but when Hotchkiss (seller) tried to collect on an interest payment (which Joseph assumed would be held off for 5 years), Joseph shot out the letter reminding Hotchkiss of the dire circumstances of the Saints on arriving to Nauvoo and Hotchkiss past sympathetic treatment of the circumstances, and Joseph was essentially telling Hotchkiss:

Look, you know we're down on our luck, you've been cooperative all along, you know this is a piece of crap parcel of land, we're improving it and increasing it's value so if you want to demand the interest payment, you can take the land back and have no buyer at all and no improvements.


During this time, Joseph had some guy (Galland?) trying to get people to hand over their land parcels in the east (which would be sold to Hotchkiss) in exchange for a parcel in Nauvoo. Had Galland not totally failed to come through, they might have had a shot at paying on the Nauvoo acreage.

I'll try to address the change in Joseph's description of the land 3 years later. But again, I don't know jack.

Jersey Girl
;-)

[_Jersey Girl]

Okay, I'm back. So, what I'm getting is that the swamp was eventually drained and the land developed. That's why in 1839, Joseph described it as wet or marshy (?) (because it was), the letter in 1841 (which was a business maneuver) described it as a sickly death hole (because it was) and later, in 1843, he described it as healthful....because by then, it was.

Next question?

Jersey Girl
;-)

[_Jersey Girl]

Here's a description about how the swamp was drained from where else?

Welcome to Beautiful Nauvoo!

"Not everything in the new community was bliss, however. Most of the southern end of the peninsula was swamp, and malarial mosquitoes infested the area. With hundreds of men out of work and scores dying from malaria, Joseph Smith organized a massive public works project to drain the swamp. Digging, blasting and picking their way from present day White Street south to the Mississippi River along Durphy Street, the Mormons drained the nearly 800 acre swamp, and made the entire Nauvoo Peninsula inhabitable. This canal was dug eight feet deep and eleven feet across for nearly three- quarters of a mile, and is still existent today, forming the western boundary of the Nauvoo State Park."

http://www.beautifulnauvoo.com/site/default.asp?pg=pages/hist_mormon.asp

[_Jersey Girl]

One more thing to add here, but again, I don't know jack frickin' nothing so pay me no mind.

The land, beastie, was bought dirt cheap because it was crap. At the time, it was the best deal Joseph Smith could get for the incoming Saints, he believed they could develop it and they did.

He was in the financial red for the entire time he lived in Nauvoo. He dreamed up one thing and then the next, in order to bring in converts (and their money) from the UK and other parts of the world including the US, in order to pay off the loan.

He wasn't exactly trying to "sell" the land in Nauvoo to converts, he was planning (at least at one point) to try to exchange a Nauvoo parcel for a parcel worth far more (owned by converts in the East) which he planned to hand over to Hotchkiss to serve as payment.

Meanwhile, he continued to develop the land in Nauvoo, drained the swamp, erected buildings, etc. until the population of Nauvoo rivaled that of Chicago. In terms of city development, Nauvoo was a huge success.

In terms of being a business man, Joseph Smith couldn't hold on to a buck to save his life.

beastie, this from your OP is in error:

Note the differences in the dates: Joseph Smith wrote the letter stating that he KNEW the land he was trying to sell was a “deathly sick hole”.

He wasn't trying to sell it. He was playing Mexican stand off with Hotchkiss.

[_rcrocket]

The First Presidency issued a warning to the Saints in a proclamation in 1841 that the "northwestern portion" of the City (which would have been the Hotchkiss portion; I've been there an run through the area; it is low-lying) was said by some to be unhealtful but that the problem "can be easily remedied by draining the sloughs." HC 4:268. The city was sparsely settled in 1841; it was that year the legislature granted the charter. Thereafter, as Glenn Lenoard's Nauvoo points out, speculators bid up the low-lying lots so that they were the most expensive . Flanders talks about the malaria and drainage issues in Nauvoo, Kingdom on the Mississippi, pp. 53 and 54. Flanders was not a member of the Church.

rcrocket

[_Sethbag]

Jersey Girl, if the land wasn't actually so bad by the time of the Hotchkiss letter, then it's euphemistic indeed to just dismiss the deception as "Mexican stand-off" or "a maneuver". If the land wasn't that bad by the time of that letter, then Joseph Smith was lying his ass off to Hotchkiss. Either way, Joseph was either deceiving the immigrants whom he induced to buy his sickhole land despite the likelihood of "mortality" that awaited them, or he lied to Hotchkiss trying to get a break on his payments. Either way, he was lying.

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl, if the land wasn't actually so bad by the time of the Hotchkiss letter, then it's euphemistic indeed to just dismiss the deception as "Mexican stand-off" or "a maneuver". If the land wasn't that bad by the time of that letter, then Joseph Smith was lying his ass off to Hotchkiss. Either way, Joseph was either deceiving the immigrants whom he induced to buy his sickhole land despite the likelihood of "mortality" that awaited them, or he lied to Hotchkiss trying to get a break on his payments. Either way, he was lying.

With all due respect, Sethbag....read the damn dates again. The land was purchased in 1839. The letter to Hotchkiss was dated 1841...the "healthful" statement was dated 1843.

In 1841, the land was in the process of improvement. It was infact, still in the process of improvement upon the Prophet's death. He didn't lie his ass off to Hotchkiss. Hotchkiss knew full well what the quality of the land was when he sold it and knew full well that the Saints were making improvements on land that no one else would buy. The Saints endured at least 2 summers of malaria. (I can look this up if you'd like) which can only mean that the efforts to drain the swamp took years to accomplish. Joseph didn't deceive anyone. He invited the folks to come, they came, they saw and they settled.

No one acted on false information.

Joseph lived in debt and he died in debt. In terms of Nauvoo, the only building that was paid for outright was the Temple that was burned to the ground when Joseph was killed.

The land wasn't "so bad" by the time of the 1843 letter. That was not the Hotchkiss letter.

[_Sethbag]

With all due respect, Jersey Girl, read the damn letter from 1841 to Hotchkiss, where he says:

I presume you are no stranger to the part of the city plat we bought of you being a deathly sickly hole, and that we have not been able in consequence to realize any valuable consideration from it, although we have been keeping up appearances, and holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable in consequence of the mortality that almost invariably awaits those who come...

This is where he tells Hotchkiss that he's basically been lying his ass off to the immigrants. Now, he was either lying his ass off to the immigrants, or the land really was better by this time, and he was lying his ass off to Hotchkiss. Take your pick.

Or else what do you think is meant by "holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable"?

[_Inconceivable]

Apparently none of you have been to Nauvoo, otherwise you would have already realized the baseless nature of these insinuations against Joseph Smith. You see, this theory comes up against the reality that Joseph Smith himself, as well as Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and many of the leading figures of the church in Nauvoo, all made their residence in the lower part of Nauvoo, Joseph’s houses being nearer the river than all the rest.
While the swampy bottoms were initially viewed with disdain by the early settlers, once it was drained it became highly desirable real estate, as evidenced by those who chose to live there.

Bill,

I visited Nauvoo about 2 years ago and went through the history lesson in the visitor's center.

Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the river has reclaimed a goodly portion of the lower lying parcels and are pretty much permanently under water. What you see that remains is the more part of the upper. I was under the impression that the Smith home/mansion, the GA's properties were on the upper part of Nauvoo on or near the main street (though the temple is yet 300+ feet higher atop the hill).

Had I not gone through the presentation (like you must not have), I would have assumed the Smith's properties had always been nearly at the waters edge.

Even if the lower portions were most suitable for farming, they certainly are and never will be more "Healthful" to humans than those on the upper portions.