Joseph's Swamp

[_beastie]

Jersey Girl -

If you are claiming that the land was not actually a sickly death hole at the time Joseph Smith so described it in a letter to Hotchkiss, you are incorrect. This wasn't just manipulative hyperbole on Joseph Smith' part. People were getting sick and dying. We know this from all the faith promoting stories about the Nauvoo period, and we also know this from records such as the one I linked on page one:

The Saints did drain the swampy terrain of Nauvoo, but the call of death continued. A Nauvoo cemetery
record kept by William Dresser Huntington during the years 1839-1846, evidences that although malaria appears to be the most prevalent disease in Nauvoo, there were several other types of sickness and illness which brought
many Nauvoo Saints to an early death.3

Yes, Joseph Smith had arranged a type of bartering in which converts from the East Coast could turn their land over to Hotchkiss and thereby attain land in Nauvoo. This does not diminish the fact that he was trying to convince immigrants to "purchase" the bottomlands he had attained, albeit through this form of barter. So yes, he was trying to sell the land, by his own admission in the Hotchkiss letter and other records.

I still have not been able to locate the source in which I had read about how the dispute between Joseph Smith and other members who had purchased Nauvoo land for speculative purposes, but I still working on it. I am fairly certain that Robert Foster was the individual who was angry that Joseph Smith was using his religious influence to persuade immigrants to purchase his land in particular, leaving Foster at a disadvantage. Foster was involved with Law in the Nauvoo Expositor as well.

http://byustudies.BYU.edu/Indexes/BioAl ... sterF.aspx

Foster, Robert D. Son of John and Jane Foster. Born 14 March 1811, in Braunston, Northampton County, England. Married Sarah (born 1812 in Massachusetts). Two known children: Nicodin and Adaline. Licensed physician. Baptized before October 1839. Ordained elder 6 October 1839. Traveled to Washington, D.C., and back to Nauvoo with Joseph Smith 1 November 1839 4 March 1840. With others appointed 7 April 1840 to draft resolutions pursuant to report of Senate Committee of Judiciary, who heard Mormon memorial on Missouri persecutions. Resolutions presented to Church conference 8 April 1840. Received patriarchal blessing from Joseph Smith, Sr., 20 July 1840. Called before Nauvoo high council 13 December and 20 December 1840 for "lying, profane swearing, and slandering the authorities of the Church." Acquitted 20 December 1840. Appointed one of regents of University of Nauvoo 3 February 1841. Member of Nauvoo Agricultural and Manufacturing Association 23 February 1841. Appointed county magistrate for Hancock County, Illinois. Appointed surgeon-in-chief and brevet brigadier-general of Nauvoo Legion. Purchased land for speculation in Nauvoo. Traveled to New York City with wife 1842, arriving 30 August. Returned to Nauvoo by January 1843. Appointed to take mission with Jonathan Allen to Tioga County, New York, 10 April 1843. Sworn in as school commissioner at Carthage, Illinois, 12 August 1843. Attended opening festivities of the Nauvoo Mansion 3 October 1843. Appointed chairman for evening; read resolution that stated in part, "Resolved, [that] General Joseph Smith, whether we view him as a Prophet at the head of the Church, a General at the head of the Legion, a Mayor at the head of the City Council, or as a landlord at the head of his table, if he has equals, he has no superiors." Joined dissident Mormons in Nauvoo during winter of 1843-44. Fined for gambling in Nauvoo April 1844. Excommunicated 18 April 1844 for adultery and apostasy. Chosen apostle in schismatic group headed by William Law 28 April 1844. Court-martialed for conduct unbecoming an officer 10 May 1844. Charges sustained. Assisted in writing and printing of Nauvoo Expositor 7 June 1844. Reported to have been accessory to murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith 27 June 1844. Residing in Canandaigua, Ontario County, New York, by 1850; there practicing medicine. Later settled at Loda, Iroquois County, lllinois. [Cook]

Will,

I have visited Nauvoo, although it's been decades. The only thing I really remember is that the mosquitoes were so thick that they literally plastered the windshield of the car. I can scarcely imagine what it was like back then.

Of course the bottom land ended up being popular - Joseph Smith had extraordinary influence on his followers, and he was pushing it. And yes, Joseph Smith and other church leaders ended up getting just as sick from malaria as other members. I fail to see how you think this somehow absolves Joseph Smith of inducing immigrants to settle on a land that, by his own admission, was so unhealthy that mortality was almost inevitable.

[Guest]

If I recall correctly: Lucy Walker's mom died in Nauvoo after sickness. This left around ten children without a mother. Joseph told her father to let him take the oldest four and sent the others to live some place else but if the other's couldn't be taken care of then he would take all of them. Joseph had guardianship of Lucy. With the father away on a mission and Lucy working as his maid, Joseph approached her for marriage. She was angry and taken back. Her dreams of a home and a husband were gone. She was a teenager with no parents to talk to. People were here one week and were dead the next. Joseph told her that it would help her family's salvation. Joseph said she would get a witness. Years later as an old woman she would write that she did get a witness that night. After Joseph was killed, Lucy left Nauvoo so she could go to school. She still had dreams and likely saw this as a window to leave. Herber C. came looking for her and wanted to marry her for time and took her back to Nauvoo. She agreed to marriage. Nauvoo had consequences for people. They should have gone west after Missouri. They should have gone all the way to the ocean that had a Harbor for economic growth.

[_karl61]

But then I'll add that the Saints thought that they were building Zion. They thought that the Lord Jesus Christ would return shortly. They thought they had the protection of God and disease would not affect them just like snake bites were not suppose to hurt the apostles. They believed a lot of things.

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie

Jersey Girl -

If you are claiming that the land was not actually a sickly death hole at the time Joseph Smith so described it in a letter to Hotchkiss, you are incorrect. This wasn't just manipulative hyperbole on Joseph Smith' part. People were getting sick and dying.

Nowhere in my post did I claim or even imply that the land wasn't a sickly death hole or that people weren't getting sick and diying. I actually (I don't think you even read my posts to you) stated that people were falling ill from maliaria, including Joseph Smith.

I lined it up with dates and details. How you could come away from reading the posts I made with the above impression is beyond me.

[_beastie]

Nowhere in my post did I claim or even imply that the land wasn't a sickly death hole or that people weren't getting sick and diying. I actually (I don't think you even read my posts to you) stated that people were falling ill from maliaria, including Joseph Smith.

I lined it up with dates and details. How you could come away from reading the posts I made with the above impression is beyond me.

Of course I read your posts. Your emphasis on Joseph Smith' attempting to manipulate Hotchkiss was what led me to my apparently erroneous conclusion. In addition, this statement of yours:

Joseph didn't deceive anyone. He invited the folks to come, they came, they saw and they settled. No one acted on false information.

confused me. People did act on false information - the people who bought (through the bartering system set up) acted on false information. Joseph Smith admitted to misleading people in his letter to Hotchkiss.

Again, I assure you I did read your posts. Perhaps if you clarify your primary point that would help me understand where I went wrong in my interpretation of your comments. Your primary point seems to be that Joseph Smith did not mislead people. The only way Joseph Smith could have NOT been misleading people would have been if the land were actually healthy. But you admit it was not. I'm just confused by your points altogether.

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie

Again, I assure you I did read your posts. Perhaps if you clarify your primary point that would help me understand where I went wrong in my interpretation of your comments. Your primary point seems to be that Joseph Smith did not mislead people. The only way Joseph Smith could have NOT been misleading people would have been if the land were actually healthy. But you admit it was not. I'm just confused by your points altogether.

Here, I'll try one more time. Beastie, show me where Joseph Smith was promoting the land as healthy.

[_Jersey Girl]

With all due respect, Jersey Girl, read the damn letter from 1841 to Hotchkiss, where he says:

I presume you are no stranger to the part of the city plat we bought of you being a deathly sickly hole, and that we have not been able in consequence to realize any valuable consideration from it, although we have been keeping up appearances, and holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable in consequence of the mortality that almost invariably awaits those who come...

This is where he tells Hotchkiss that he's basically been lying his ass off to the immigrants. Now, he was either lying his ass off to the immigrants, or the land really was better by this time, and he was lying his ass off to Hotchkiss. Take your pick.

Or else what do you think is meant by "holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable"?

No, he is not lying his ass off, Sethbag. They WERE keeping up appearances that they were financially solvent. This had nothing to do with the quality of the land. Perhaps if you were to read the letter in the historical context, you'd see. Or even read it in the context from which you chose to bold one line.

[_Chap]

With all due respect, Jersey Girl, read the damn letter from 1841 to Hotchkiss, where he says:

I presume you are no stranger to the part of the city plat we bought of you being a deathly sickly hole, and that we have not been able in consequence to realize any valuable consideration from it, although we have been keeping up appearances, and holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable in consequence of the mortality that almost invariably awaits those who come...

This is where he tells Hotchkiss that he's basically been lying his ass off to the immigrants. Now, he was either lying his ass off to the immigrants, or the land really was better by this time, and he was lying his ass off to Hotchkiss. Take your pick.

Or else what do you think is meant by "holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable"?

No, he is not lying his ass off, Sethbag. They WERE keeping up appearances that they were financially solvent. This had nothing to do with the quality of the land. Perhaps if you were to read the letter in the historical context, you'd see. Or even read it in the context from which you chose to bold one line.

Let's see ... Joseph Smith knew that his land was "a deathly sickly hole". Yet he says "we have been keeping up appearances, and holding out inducements to encourage immigration", and he admits to "the mortality that almost invariably awaits those who come..".

Now if he was not a liar in his "inducements to encourage immigration" to Nauvoo, he would have had to have said something like: "Buy land in Nauvoo - but please note that it is a deathly sickly hole where mortality almost invariably awaits those who come".

Somehow I doubt that Jersey Girl will be able to produce any "context" whether from the Hotchkiss letter or elsewhere that will show Joseph doing that. If not, he was certainly lying by omission in a highly culpable way. But go ahead, Jersey Girl and show us what you've got ... your loyal readers await.

[_Jersey Girl]

With all due respect, Jersey Girl, read the damn letter from 1841 to Hotchkiss, where he says:

I presume you are no stranger to the part of the city plat we bought of you being a deathly sickly hole, and that we have not been able in consequence to realize any valuable consideration from it, although we have been keeping up appearances, and holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable in consequence of the mortality that almost invariably awaits those who come...

This is where he tells Hotchkiss that he's basically been lying his ass off to the immigrants. Now, he was either lying his ass off to the immigrants, or the land really was better by this time, and he was lying his ass off to Hotchkiss. Take your pick.

Or else what do you think is meant by "holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable"?

No, he is not lying his ass off, Sethbag. They WERE keeping up appearances that they were financially solvent. This had nothing to do with the quality of the land. Perhaps if you were to read the letter in the historical context, you'd see. Or even read it in the context from which you chose to bold one line.

Let's see ... Joseph Smith knew that his land was "a deathly sickly hole". Yet he says "we have been keeping up appearances, and holding out inducements to encourage immigration", and he admits to "the mortality that almost invariably awaits those who come..".

Now if he was not a liar in his "inducements to encourage immigration" to Nauvoo, he would have had to have said something like: "Buy land in Nauvoo - but please note that it is a deathly sickly hole where mortality almost invariably awaits those who come".

Somehow I doubt that Jersey Girl will be able to produce any "context" whether from the Hotchkiss letter or elsewhere that will show Joseph doing that. If not, he was certainly lying by omission in a highly culpable way. But go ahead, Jersey Girl and show us what you've got ... your loyal readers await.

What you all are doing is taking the letter and even excerpts of his letters out of context. It is just as I said. Beastie does this in her OP where she posts the Hotchkiss letter dated 1841 and then the comment about the location being healthful and uses that as some sort of evidence that Joseph was lying in 1843 when what she has done is ignore that the letters are 2 years apart and the land, by then, was indeed healthful.

If what you're looking for is someone who shoots at anything that is Joseph Smith, you're looking at the wrong person to do it.

What "inducements" did he offer to immigrants?

[Tator]

I bolded that line, Jersey Girl. They were "holding out inducements to encourage immigration." Just what do you think were the inducements? You think that he was openly admitting that it was a sickly death hole? Since Joseph Smith didn't do us the favor of explaining exactly what the inducements were, we can only surmise from his later 1843 statement, in which the inducement was primarily his religious influence and assurance that the land was healthy. He was assuring people who had just arrived in Nauvoo - who were not familiar with the history of illness - that the bottom lands were the healthiest.

In addition, in 1839, Joseph Smith sent out Oliver Granger as his representative with this letter:

A Letter of Recommendation to Oliver Granger from the First
Presidency.

COMMERCE, ILLINOIS, 13th May, 1839.

Joseph Smith, Jun., Sidney Rigdon, and Hyrum Smith, presiding Elders
of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby certify and
solemnly declare unto all the Saints scattered abroad, and send unto them
greeting. That we have always found President Oliver Granger to be a man
of the most strict integrity and moral virtue; and in fine, to be a man of
God.

We have had long experience and acquaintance with Brother Granger. We
have entrusted vast business concerns to him, which have been managed
skillfully to the support of our characters and interest as well as that
of the Church; and he is now authorized by a general conference to go
forth and engage in vast and important concerns as an agent for the
Church, that he may fill a station of usefulness in obedience to the
commandment of God, which was given unto him July 8, 1838, which says,
"Let him (meaning Brother Granger) contend earnestly for the redemption of
the First Presidency of my Church, saith the Lord."

We earnestly solicit the Saints scattered abroad to strengthen his
hands with all their might, and to put such means into his hands as shall
enable him to accomplish his lawful designs and purposes, according to the
commandments, and according to the instructions which he shall give unto
them. And that they entrust him with moneys, lands, chattels, and goods,
to assist him in this work; and it shall redound greatly to the interest
and welfare, peace and satisfaction of my Saints, saith the Lord God, for
this is an honorable agency which I have appointed unto him, saith the
Lord. And again, verily, thus saith the Lord, I will lift up my servant
Oliver, and beget for him a great name on the earth, and among my people,
because of the integrity of his soul: therefore, let all my Saints abound
unto him, with all liberality and long suffering, and it shall be a
blessing on their heads.

We would say unto the saints abroad, let our hearts abound with
grateful acknowledgements unto God our Heavenly Father, who hath called us
unto His holy calling by the revelation of Jesus Christ, in these last
days, and has so mercifully stood by us, and delivered us out of the
seventh trouble, which happened unto us in the State of Missouri. May God
reward our enemies according to their works. We request the prayers of all
the Saints, subscribing ourselves their humble brethren in tribulations.
in the bonds of the everlasting Gospel. JOSEPH
SMITH, JUN., SIDNEY RlGDON, HYRUM SMITH

http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History ... ch/Vol_III

What do you imagine Oliver Granger was encouraging the "saints abroad" to do? What do you think Joseph Smith wanted him to encourage the saints abroad to do? Do you believe that either Joseph Smith or his representatives were disclosing how sickly the land actually was? Did this letter hold out "inducements", that were basically religious influence?

http://byustudies.BYU.edu/Indexes/BioAl ... sterG.aspx

Granger, Oliver. Son of Pierce and Clarissa Granger. Born 7 February 1794 in Phelps, Ontario County, New York. Married Lydia Dibble (born 5 April 1790) 8 September 1818. Three known children: Lydia, Gilbert, and Carlos. Lost much of sight from cold and exposure 1827. Sheriff of Ontario County, New York. Baptized and ordained elder in Wayne County, New York, by Brigham and Joseph Young. Moved to Kirtland 1833. Mission to East with Samuel Newcomb 1833. Appointed to take mission alone "eastward" 20 February 1834. Worked on Kirtland Temple. Received blessing for working on Kirtland Temple 8 March 1835. Mission to East with John P. Greene 1836. Established branches of Church in Huntsburg, Geauga County, and in Perry, Richland County, Ohio, 1836. Ordained high priest 29 April 1836. Appointed member of Kirtland high council 4 September 1837. Ordained 9 September 1837 as high councilor. Moved to Far West, Missouri, June 1838. Appointed by revelation on 8 July 1838 to return to Kirtland as Prophet’s attorney-in-fact to settle up Church business. Arrived in Kirtland August 1838. Left Kirtland to return to Far West October 1838; precluded from doing so by Bogg’s extermination order. Located in Nauvoo 1839. During summer of 1839, served as Church land agent, acquiring property in Lee County, Iowa, for Saints. Moved to Kirtland 1840. Appointed to make land exchanges to Church members by First Presidency as being "a man of the most strict integrity and moral virtue; and in fine, a man of God." Died 25 August 1841 in Kirtland, Lake County, Ohio. [Cook]

Like Bob, you have simply asserted that the land was healthy by 1843 without offering evidence that this was so.

Yet I earlier provided this that contradicts this assertion:

When John Butler first visited Commerce (later known as Nauvoo) he
recalled, “I asked Brother Joseph what kind of a place it was. He said it was
a low, marshy, wet, damp and nasty place, but that if we went to work and
improved it, it would become more healthy and the Lord would bless it for
our sakes.”1 The Prophet Joseph Smith also stated, “The name of our city
(Nauvoo) is of Hebrew origin, and signifies a beautiful situation, or place,
carrying with it, also, the idea of rest; and is truly descriptive of the most
delightful situation. . . . This place has been objected to by some, on account
of the sickness which has prevailed in the summer months.” Yet Joseph
expressed his hope that such sickness could be “remedied by draining the
sloughs on the adjacent islands in the Mississippi.”2 The Saints did drain the
swampy terrain of Nauvoo, but the call of death continued. A Nauvoo cemetery
record kept by William Dresser Huntington during the years 1839-1846,
evidences that although malaria appears to be the most prevalent disease in
Nauvoo, there were several other types of sickness and illness which brought
many Nauvoo Saints to an early death.3

http://www.mormonhistoricsitesfoundatio ... 2Woods.pdf