There is no free will in Mormonism

[_harmony]

You fly in here once in a while, drop your version of reality like so much manure, complain about someone else's closed mind (someone you haven't had enough interaction with to have any idea of the state of their mind), and expect us all to jump on your bandwagon and cheer. Not gonna happen.

I have been here since this forum started and long before this version of the forum started. I read this daily, culled from it for almost three years for the Mormon Curtain. Just because I don't post regularly (as I have my own forums to take care of) doesn't mean I don't know who the regular posters are and what their positions are.

So you say, with nothing to back up your claims. If you know that of which you claim, then you know which side of the fence I sit on. So your demands ring hollow indeed.

[_Infymus]

You fly in here once in a while, drop your version of reality like so much manure, complain about someone else's closed mind (someone you haven't had enough interaction with to have any idea of the state of their mind), and expect us all to jump on your bandwagon and cheer. Not gonna happen.

I have been here since this forum started and long before this version of the forum started. I read this daily, culled from it for almost three years for the Mormon Curtain. Just because I don't post regularly (as I have my own forums to take care of) doesn't mean I don't know who the regular posters are and what their positions are.

So you say, with nothing to back up your claims. If you know that of which you claim, then you know which side of the fence I sit on. So your demands ring hollow indeed.

Yes, my demands to have you explain your position do indeed ring hollow.

I see Harmony that I am wasting my time with you. I know you sit on the side of the fence between the antis and the apologists. You have nothing to contribute to either side. Just like this whole thread. You have added nothing but accusations with nothing of substance. Did you once take my original message and break it down piece by piece and attempt to respond to it? No, you immediately come in here and dismiss me with terms you don't even understand. When you're called on the carpet for those terms, you totally ignore it and continue to use them. Did I say anything that was doctrinally incorrect? Did I lie? Was anything that I wrote not found somewhere in Mormon dogma? You didn't even bother to try and figure this out.

You will see what ever it is you want to see. Typical Mormon apologist. I see you are following the second rule of apologetics and that is ignore the message, attack the messenger. But wait a minute, you're not a typical apologist because you have nothing to back up your own words. You mention DCP previously, but at least DCP explains himself, has the documentation to back himself up and doesn't just come out using words he doesn't understand.

Personally I've quite enjoyed DCPs latest posts back and forth with Mr. Scratch. It has shown me a side of DCP I haven't seen before and actually I see him quite differently now in a more humanistic way.

The whole point of this Harmony is that you and I do not agree when it comes to the Mormon POS(tm). Fine. But to say that my argument against the POS(tm) is a "straw man" without proof makes you out to be an ass. To say that I'm holding a world-wide view about it without proof except lots of pretty words means nothing.

You can talk the talk but in the end your statements are hollow and you're nothing but a nit picky forum squatter. I have wasted more than enough time on you.

[_harmony]

You fly in here once in a while, drop your version of reality like so much manure, complain about someone else's closed mind (someone you haven't had enough interaction with to have any idea of the state of their mind), and expect us all to jump on your bandwagon and cheer. Not gonna happen.

I have been here since this forum started and long before this version of the forum started. I read this daily, culled from it for almost three years for the Mormon Curtain. Just because I don't post regularly (as I have my own forums to take care of) doesn't mean I don't know who the regular posters are and what their positions are.

So you say, with nothing to back up your claims. If you know that of which you claim, then you know which side of the fence I sit on. So your demands ring hollow indeed.

Yes, my demands to have you explain your position do indeed ring hollow.

I see Harmony that I am wasting my time with you. I know you sit on the side of the fence between the antis and the apologists. You have nothing to contribute to either side. Just like this whole thread. You have added nothing but accusations with nothing of substance. Did you once take my original message and break it down piece by piece and attempt to respond to it? No, you immediately come in here and dismiss me with terms you don't even understand. When you're called on the carpet for those terms, you totally ignore it and continue to use them. Did I say anything that was doctrinally incorrect? Did I lie? Was anything that I wrote not found somewhere in Mormon dogma? You didn't even bother to try and figure this out.

You will see what ever it is you want to see. Typical Mormon apologist. I see you are following the second rule of apologetics and that is ignore the message, attack the messenger. But wait a minute, you're not a typical apologist because you have nothing to back up your own words. You mention DCP previously, but at least DCP explains himself, has the documentation to back himself up and doesn't just come out using words he doesn't understand.

Personally I've quite enjoyed DCPs latest posts back and forth with Mr. Scratch. It has shown me a side of DCP I haven't seen before and actually I see him quite differently now in a more humanistic way.

The whole point of this Harmony is that you and I do not agree when it comes to the Mormon POS(tm). Fine. But to say that my argument against the POS(tm) is a "straw man" without proof makes you out to be an ass. To say that I'm holding a world-wide view about it without proof except lots of pretty words means nothing.

You can talk the talk but in the end your statements are hollow and you're nothing but a nit picky forum squatter. I have wasted more than enough time on you.

You fly in here with your flag unfurled, throwing out distortions and exaggerations, and expect the forum to bow down and kiss your feet. Well, guess what. I think your distortions and exaggerations are, amazingly enough, distorted and exaggerated! You post your interpretation of Mormon doctrine. I post my opinion of your interpretation. You demand a point by point analysis. I tell you to go piss up a rope, that you aren't worth the effort it would take. You whine and complain about my closed mind some more. I tell you I don't care what you think, and in all honesty, I've never seen such a closed mind as yours is.

In the end, it's been entertaining at best, and a total waste of time at worst, which is exactly what I expected from you.

I already gave you a paragraph about your interpretation. As expected, you ignored the point completely and instead threw another temper tantrum. Why should I bother to show you an alternate interpretation of every one of your points, when I've seen what you seem to think qualifies as discussion with the one I engaged you on?

Hell's bells. Grow up. You're an embarrassment.

[_Infymus]

I was going to end this, but it is getting fun.

You fly in here with your flag unfurled, throwing out distortions and exaggerations, and expect the forum to bow down and kiss your feet.

Yes of course Harmony, you nailed it. That was my exact point of coming in here and posting. I want everyone in this forum to bow down and kiss my feet.

/Shrug
//Whatever

Well, guess what. I think your distortions and exaggerations are, amazingly enough, distorted and exaggerated! You post your interpretation of Mormon doctrine.

Name one exaggeration that I gave about the POS(tm). Oh yeah, sorry, you won't because of your next point:

you aren't worth the effort it would take.

Ah yes, it becomes clearer. Just like most Mormon Apologists. Make bold statements and when asked to back up your claims, you hide behind statements such as this.

The real fact of the matter is this: You can't answer the original question and won't.

You whine and complain about my closed mind some more.

And then, why did you even bother responding because obviously:

I tell you I don't care what you think, and in all honesty, I've never seen such a closed mind as yours is.

I'm so goddamn closed minded because I won't accept Harmony's accusations without further evidence!

I already gave you a paragraph about your interpretation. As expected, you ignored the point completely and instead threw another temper tantrum.

You stated my writing was a "straw man" and a "world view". That was the original point. I didn't ignore the point at all, in fact, I called you on the carpet for it. I have asked you repeatedly to explain why you think it is either straw man or world view. Instead, you write these immature messages about how close minded I am, and how I'm not worth your time - all the while totally avoiding having to answer the real question I posed to you. Oh yes, and I'm supposed to piss up a rope somehow because that is the answer right there.

Hell's bells. Grow up. You're an embarrassment.

Next time you jump into a conversation where I've written something you don't like, be prepared to back it up otherwise I am going to nail you again and again. If I jump into your conversation and state that you are using straw man tactics and "world views", I am going to quote references and show you WHY I think such. However, obviously, you are utterly incapable of that. You like to give your opinion, then when asked why, you turn around and brush them off. They're "not worth your time". Hey, where have I seen that? Oh yeah, DCP telling Bob McCue the same thing when Bob called DCP on the carpet.

Comon Harmony. I don't need a point by point reference. I want a reference to the straw man you so think my original post was all about. I want reference to a "world-view" you so think I carry. If you can't provide both, then get quit shoving your nose where it doesn't belong because really, you are showing just how much of an embarrassment you really are.

[_Jason Bourne]

Our "Agency", according to the Mormon view of the world gives us the choice to live with god by doing exactly what the Mormon church mandates or be cast out from the presence of god. that's what is so "beautiful" about the plan of salvation to Mormons.

Its the henry ford approach to religion. You can believe anything you want...as long as its Mormonism.

Mormon Free Agency is neither free nor gives us agency. Ultimately doublespeak and contradictory philosophies rule the Mormon roost but this is par for the course.

I understand what you are saying but does free will or agency let us escape from the consequences? Ignoring God for a moment you have free will to do whatever you want. But what you do has results. Cheat on your wife and you may lose your marriage. Stand in front of a car going 60 MPH and you will die. Smoke and you may be at risk for health problems. Exercise and watch what you eat and you will lose weight and be more fit. Steal my money and you may go to jail.

[_Jason Bourne]

1. God and the LDS church are not synonymous, no matter how much members, leaders, or prophets want to make that so. God was around long before the LDS church started and will be around long after it is gone.

If God exists God is God. The LDS Church's attempts to understand what, who, how God is is as valid as any other faith movement.

2. What people call the Mormon God does not exist anywhere outside LDS culture and those exposed to it. God is not the Mormon God. What people call the Mormon God is an invention of human minds, and nothing else. Infymus's entire tirade is against a strawman, a cultural phenomena, the smoke and mirrors of decades of human leadership that long ago lost the ability to communicate with God. If Joseph had it (and I think he did), he lost it, and those who came after him never had it at all.

Once again, what religous system is not full of man made ideas about who and what God is and how he, she, it operates?

ETB was right: the church is under condemnation. We're going through the motions, but we don't "see" any better than anyone else does.

You use ETBs quote from the D&C a lot but you misuse it. He did not mean it the way you use it. You should go back and read him in context. Then tell me WHY he said the Church was under condemnation. Here is a hint. He said it was for the same reason given in the D&C verse he quoted when he used it. Find that verse and you will understand what he meant.

3. Freedom is such a broad subject, it's almost impossible to get a handle on it. None of us is truly free. We all live in a society of some sort, even if we're a hermit on the top of a mountain. There is no choice that doesn't have a consequence. The LDS world/culture has it's own set of choices and consequences, just as every other group does. We either accept them or reject them... or accept some while rejecting others.

Everyone is free to chose but nobody is free from the consequences. In the LDS belief systemn we are indeed free to choose. But we are not free, in LDS belief, from positive or negative results. The same is true of any other belief system and indeed of the rule of law and justice in any civil society. It is silly to say the LDS Church does not believe in free will. It is incorrect and wrong. From the view point of Christian religions we certainly do believe in free will. We are not Calvinist at all.

[_Jason Bourne]

Please define how my argument is against a "straw man". My argument is against the Mormon "Plan Of Salvation(tm)" that Mormonism teaches to new converts. It has nothing to do with religion outside of Mormonism.

It may not be a straw man but it is certianly in error. Mormons believe in free will. Just because there are good and bad results from your choices does not negate that fact. Free will, agency, free agency,whatever you want to call it does not mean doing whatever you want to do and not having results. Sorry. Maybe your argument is indeed a straw man.

WIKI: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

So tell me, Harmony, how is my argument against the POS(tm) a "straw man" argument?

Your argument is fallacious, incorrect, wrong and it is as simple as that.

Show me, oh please, the error of my ways, but please do so logically, rather than the Mormon, "the sensations under my nipples tells me so" way.

Done deal.

[_Jason Bourne]

our worldview is skewed, but I have absolutely no compulsion to set you straight.

This has nothing to do with a world-wide view, this has everything to do with the Mormon View. And since you're a line toting Mormon, it has everything to do with your world.

That you would see my sentence that way is no mystery. What I meant was, what will be will be, and you kicking against the pricks has no more influence on the outcome than anyone else who ever kicked. What you deem as the "Mormon God" is a figment of your imagination, a strawman, although I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. I see no advantage to me, to disabuse you of your notions. I'm not exactly a great Saint myself, since I see little of my God in either your version of the Mormon God or the official version. I don't see coersion, force, or culpability in the church today, although it is a definite given in its infancy. However much has changed since then.

Then Harmony, this is all I need. You're another one of those who cannot explain your position, nor do you wish to debate the doctrine for which you live in. You are just another religious ass who points the fingers at those who question and state, "You are kicking against the pricks". It is so typical of Mormons who will not debate their own religion. When someone of their faith suddenly "falls away" and realizes the whole thing is a sham, suddenly they are the outcast. When they debate the portion of the faith they do not agree with they are either "kicking against the pricks", or they are under the influence of "Satan".

Fine.

Go suck up to your Hinkster and come back when you can open your mind. Come back when you understand what "Straw Man" really means. Until then, you sit and obfuscate and point the finger - a typical closed-minded Mormon bigot.

How typical. What balthering and rage.


Maybe we need to define what people think free will and agency means.

In the US we live by the rule of law. You are free to do what you want. You have free will. But if you steal my car or murder me the law will punish you and you go to prison or could even forfeit your life. Does that mean the US does not have free will or allow for agency?

In many Christin faith's you have the free will to have faith in Jesus. Choose to have faith, confess him as Lord and go to heaven. Don't do this and go to hell.

In LDS belief you have free will to accept Jesus, accept the LDS Church as the restored gospel of Christ, make temple covenants and reap varying rewards and levels of heaven. Do not do this and you get something less. Spirit prison till judgement then some sort of glory based on what you did and or accepted in the spirit world based on your situation. This is as much free will as the two examples above.

Now if free will means to do what you want with out any consequences, well that is a fantasy that exists nowhere not even in the laws on the physical world.

[_harmony]

And this is a prime example of why I will not engage you.

You said:

At the time of judgment, the Doctrine and Covenants of the Mormon Church state that all knees shall bend and accept that Jesus Christ is God. There will be no persons who will not bow. All men will be forced by God to kneel before him and accept that he is. Agency does not play a part in this scenario. Neither does agency play a part in the scenario of being locked in a prison never to be allowed out unless one accepts the plan of salvation. Agency does not exist in this condition. There is no other choice.

I said:

For example, your distortion of "every knee shall bow and every mouth confess that Jesus is the Christ" is misunderstood as coersion. If indeed that passage is accurate, then even your knee will bow and your mouth confess that Jesus is indeed the Christ, because to do otherwise would be unthinkable, as if you would insist that your name for yourself is not Infymus. Coersion would not be necessary, because the truth would be prima facie. If the passage is not accurate, then confession will be unnecessary, since again, the truth will be prima facie.

In rebuttal, you gave no rebuttal; on the contrary, you offered up a temper tantrum:

Oh my God. You cannot see the forest through the trees can you Harmony.

I will not bow to your Mormon God.

I will do the unthinkable.

I will NOT obey, I will not bow, I will tell your God to go and F* himself before I bow before him.

And guess what? According to your Gods rules, I get to go to a prison set aside for me, right?

See this is where you just don't get it. It isn't about the truth being "prima facie". It's about free agency. It's about freedom. The freedom to CHOOSE NOT TO BOW. To choose NOT to follow the Mormon Jesus. And in that choice, not being subject to the Mormon Jesus' rules and regulations. Do NOT put me in a kingdom that the Mormon Jesus created. Do NOT subject me to the Mormon Jesus' punishments. I want out - completely - show me the goddamn door.

The thing is, you will have that choice. You will not take that choice, even though you say you will now, but in the face of incontrovertable evidence of the divinity of Jesus Christ, you will bend your knee and bow your head, because to do otherwise would be lying. And you will not be able to lie at that point. The ability to lie, to sin, is earthbound. After death, you will not lie. So if Jesus is indeed the Christ, you will declare him such, just like everyone else will.

Kick, kick, kick against the pricks, Infymus. Geez, you're an embarrassment. It's like watching a 5 year old throw a temper tantrum.

[_Infymus]

The thing is, you will have that choice. You will not take that choice, even though you say you will now, but in the face of incontrovertable evidence of the divinity of Jesus Christ, you will bend your knee and bow your head, because to do otherwise would be lying. And you will not be able to lie at that point.

I don't give a sh*t WHO he is. I love this because it is driving you crazy. I don't care who he is. I don't care if I have 1000% knowledge of who he is. I will NOT bow. I will NOT obey.

[Moderator Note---Please refrain from using the sh-- word in the Terrestrial Forum. Thank you. Liz]

The ability to lie, to sin, is earthbound. After death, you will not lie. So if Jesus is indeed the Christ, you will declare him such, just like everyone else will.

So what you are saying is that after death what limited agency we DID have will be totally taken away? What, am I going to try and lie and other words are going to come out of my mouth? Seems like more coercion here. Seems like more forced obedience and compulsion here.

Kick, kick, kick against the pricks, Infymus.

That is a term your religion created in order to justify doctrine being rejected.

Geez, you're an embarrassment. It's like watching a 5 year old throw a temper tantrum.

Because I won't accept your God? Because I will turn my back on your God? Because I won't OBEY? Or is it because I totally reject your religion?

Typical Mormon. You will see only what you want to see, and anyone else who rejects or objects is either an embarrassment or is throwing a tantrum. Because really, in the end, according to you, it doesn't matter, they are going to have to obey or be punished. Again you completely and totally misunderstand my original post about free agency and the POS(tm).

Jesus Christ Harmony, why don't you STFU and go back to church where you belong.