There is no free will in Mormonism

[_wenglund]

Agency in Mormonism is like elections in the old USSR. You have the ability to choose, but there is only one correct choice.

You absolutely nailed it. In Mormonism, there is only one choice. If you choose wrong, you go to jail. If you choose right, you become a God.

I want choice number three. I want neither.

Wait, there is no choice number three in Mormonism, right? Right.

No wonder there was a war in heaven. The Mormon God needed to be taken down and taken down hard.

Perhaps it might help to get your facts straight. Unlike many religions which have a binary view of post mortality (either the person goes to heaven or hell), we LDS believe in three postmortal kingdoms of glory as well as outer darkness. In other words, according to our beliefs there are at least 4 major options/choices (which is one more than the three choices you hoped for).

And, since attainment of these 4 postmortal kingdoms is a function of choice, there clearly is free will in Mormonism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Infymus]

Agency in Mormonism is like elections in the old USSR. You have the ability to choose, but there is only one correct choice.

You absolutely nailed it. In Mormonism, there is only one choice. If you choose wrong, you go to jail. If you choose right, you become a God.

I want choice number three. I want neither.

Wait, there is no choice number three in Mormonism, right? Right.

No wonder there was a war in heaven. The Mormon God needed to be taken down and taken down hard.

Perhaps it might help to get your facts straight. Unlike many religions which have a binary view of post mortality (either the person goes to heaven or hell), we LDS believe in three postmortal kingdoms of glory as well as outer darkness. In other words, according to our beliefs there are at least 4 major options/choices (which is one more than the three choices you hoped for).

And, since attainment of these 4 postmortal kingdoms is a function of choice, there clearly is free will in Mormonism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Why aren't there FIVE choices Wade?

Choice Number Five: Freedom from the Mormon Plan Of Salvation(tm). I don't want to be in any kingdom, in any heaven, any hell, or anything to do with Mormonism.

Whoops. Sorry. No choice number five. Stop being an embarrassment, stop throwing tantrums...

If I don't make it to the top #1 kingdom, what happens to me? Can I ever get to kingdom #1 and be a God myself?

Now we're getting somewhere.

[_Yoda]

Why aren't there FIVE choices Wade?

Choice Number Five: Freedom from the Mormon Plan Of Salvation(tm). I don't want to be in any kingdom, in any heaven, any hell, or anything to do with Mormonism.

Whoops. Sorry. No choice number five. Stop being an embarrassment, stop throwing tantrums...

If I don't make it to the top #1 kingdom, what happens to me? Can I ever get to kingdom #1 and be a God myself?

Now we're getting somewhere.

I'm curious....You seem hell-bent on changing LDS doctrine. Why?

If you honestly don't believe in it, then this whole Plan of Salvation isn't going to happen anyway.

If others choose to believe in this, what's the harm...freedom of religion and all....

[_Infymus]

Why aren't there FIVE choices Wade?

Choice Number Five: Freedom from the Mormon Plan Of Salvation(tm). I don't want to be in any kingdom, in any heaven, any hell, or anything to do with Mormonism.

Whoops. Sorry. No choice number five. Stop being an embarrassment, stop throwing tantrums...

If I don't make it to the top #1 kingdom, what happens to me? Can I ever get to kingdom #1 and be a God myself?

Now we're getting somewhere.

I'm curious....You seem hell-bent on changing LDS doctrine. Why?

If you honestly don't believe in it, then this whole Plan of Salvation isn't going to happen anyway.

If others choose to believe in this, what's the harm...freedom of religion and all....

I'm not interested in changing the doctrine. I want to show that the Mormon POS(tm) is a doctrine of compulsion. A doctrine full of prisons to hold those who will not obey or who will not agree with the Mormon God. To show that there is an infinite number of prisons full of human beings who really had no choice.

The POS(tm) isn't about choice.

And you're right, I don't believe it at all any more - but my line of thinking is what led me on the path out of Mormonism. And yep, the whole time I was told I was kicking against the pricks.

The original thread, prior to Harmony hijacking it, was about free agency and free will inside of Mormonism. The POS(tm) encompasses both. Unfortunately, the thread is derailed although it may be still salvageable.

My argument is that Free Agency or Free Will does not exist because a plan is already in place and the outcome is certain. Mormons state the outcome isn't certain because we can CHOOSE the outcome by our behavior. My argument is that why can't we get out of the plan and choose a different plan? Why can't we judge God? Is Mormonism the only plan available in the whole universe? Is there nothing else we can do?

It is these questions that got me into trouble.

[_wenglund]

It is not uncommon for teens to feel terribly constrained by their parent, and to view parental rules as a loss of freedom or free will.

It is also not uncommon for them (and even certain adults) to have a similar view of other authoritarian-like entities such as schools, jobs, military, religion, etc.

And, the tendency is to rebel against these entities in hopes of gaining personal freedom and in order for people to do what they want. This is essentially what I see some people suggesting and doing on this thread.

However, through maturity they may eventually discover that, ironically, the "rules" they rebelled against at home and school and church and so forth, were actually designed to not only help avoid loss of freedom, but also enable greater freedom. Rather than being an impediment to free will, they helped preserve and enhance free will.

For example, while the Word of Wisdom may seem to some people to be quite restrictive and limiting to personal freedom, it is actually not only designed to help avoid the potential loss of freedom that comes from substance abuse and addiction, but also potentially enable increased freedom that may come through improved health and strength of body.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

For example, while the Word of Wisdom may seem to some people to be quite restrictive and limiting to personal freedom, it is actually not only designed to help avoid the potential loss of freedom that comes from substance abuse and addiction, but also potentially enable increased freedom that may come through improved health and strength of body.

What about the more recent research involving red wine? Heart doctors have said that, in moderation, a glass of red wine in the evenings actually improves health.

Maybe they'll reincorporate wine back into the sacrament.

;)

by the way, Wade...I've missed your posts.

Welcome back!

;)

[Gadianton]

Agency in Mormonism is like elections in the old USSR. You have the ability to choose, but there is only one correct choice.

You absolutely nailed it. In Mormonism, there is only one choice. If you choose wrong, you go to jail. If you choose right, you become a God.

I want choice number three. I want neither.

Wait, there is no choice number three in Mormonism, right? Right.

No wonder there was a war in heaven. The Mormon God needed to be taken down and taken down hard.

Perhaps it might help to get your facts straight. Unlike many religions which have a binary view of post mortality (either the person goes to heaven or hell), we LDS believe in three post-mortal kingdoms of glory as well as outer darkness. In other words, according to our beliefs there are at least 4 major options/choices (which is one more than the three choices you hoped for).

And, since attainment of these 4 postmortal kingdoms is a function of choice, there clearly is free will in Mormonism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Why aren't there FIVE choices Wade?

Actually, while there are five major post-mortal categories or choices, there are innumerable sub-choices.

Choice Number Five: Freedom from the Mormon Plan Of Salvation(tm). I don't want to be in any kingdom, in any heaven, any hell, or anything to do with Mormonism.

If the LDS belief is an accurate view of post-mortal "reality", then then your choice #5 is not unlike this secular equivolent: "Freedom from science. During mortality I don't want to live on any planet or anywhere in space, nor do I wish to be subject to any of the laws of physics, or medicine, or sociology, or anything to do with science".

Does that make sense to you?

However, if the LDS belief is not an accurate view of post-mortal "reality", then that simply renders it inaccurate, and does not mean it negates free will (as you and others contended).

If I don't make it to the top #1 kingdom, what happens to me?

You will live in some other kingdom of glory--one that is commenserate with various choices you made on earth. You will have the kind of eternal life you have essential chosen to have. In other words, it is a function of free will.

Will I ever get to kingdom #1 and be a God myself?

Only if you make godly choices. In other words, only if you exercise your free will in a godly way.

Now we're getting somewhere.

I hope so. Are you beginning to understand that the LDS view of the after-life is all about "free will", contrary to what you and others have mistakely suggested?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

For example, while the Word of Wisdom may seem to some people to be quite restrictive and limiting to personal freedom, it is actually not only designed to help avoid the potential loss of freedom that comes from substance abuse and addiction, but also potentially enable increased freedom that may come through improved health and strength of body.

What about the more recent research involving red wine? Heart doctors have said that, in moderation, a glass of red wine in the evenings actually improves health.

Maybe they'll reincorporate wine back into the sacrament. ;)

Maybe Gerber will start putting it in their baby formula. ;-)

Whatever the case, I hope the general principle I suggested is born out through the example I used and not lost in working out certain minor details.

by the way, Wade...I've missed your posts.

Welcome back! ;)

That is very kind of you to say...and it brightened my day. I hope you know the sentiment is mutual.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

Maybe Gerber will start putting it in their baby formula. ;-)

LOL!

That reminds me of a joke by Erma Bombeck:

"I was going crazy because my baby was teething and crying non-stop. I called my mother, and she suggested trying a little whiskey on the gums.....so I took a belt and I felt better!"

;)

That is very kind of you to say...and it brightened my day. I hope you know the sentiment is mutual.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited to add---You're a sweetie!

:)

[_ozemc]

For example, while the Word of Wisdom may seem to some people to be quite restrictive and limiting to personal freedom, it is actually not only designed to help avoid the potential loss of freedom that comes from substance abuse and addiction, but also potentially enable increased freedom that may come through improved health and strength of body.

What about the more recent research involving red wine? Heart doctors have said that, in moderation, a glass of red wine in the evenings actually improves health.

Maybe they'll reincorporate wine back into the sacrament.

;)

by the way, Wade...I've missed your posts.

Welcome back!

;)

As a cardiac patient, I was very interested in the medicinal effects of red wine.

While my doctor told me the PC line of "Well, we can never encourage anyone to drink", he did tell me that, if I did, it would be better to drink red wine.