There is no free will in Mormonism

[_Doctor Steuss]

As a cardiac patient, I was very interested in the medicinal effects of red wine.

While my doctor told me the PC line of "Well, we can never encourage anyone to drink", he did tell me that, if I did, it would be better to drink red wine.

Didn't the UofW Medical School do a study a while back showing that grape juice has the same flavonoids that wine has that make wine beneficial. The only problem is that some grape juices are processed in such a way as to remove the flavonoids or destroy them, but if you stick with organic (non-concentrate) junk, you get the same effects as red wine...

I seem to remember that the LDL oxidation rate was taken down about the same with some good ole fashioned grape juice as it was with a glass of red wine.


????

Edited to add:
Tah-dah Wine or Welch's?

[_Jason Bourne]

The thing is, you will have that choice. You will not take that choice, even though you say you will now, but in the face of incontrovertable evidence of the divinity of Jesus Christ, you will bend your knee and bow your head, because to do otherwise would be lying. And you will not be able to lie at that point.

I don't give a sh*t WHO he is. I love this because it is driving you crazy. I don't care who he is. I don't care if I have 1000% knowledge of who he is. I will NOT bow. I will NOT obey.

[Moderator Note---Please refrain from using the sh-- word in the Terrestrial Forum. Thank you. Liz]

The ability to lie, to sin, is earthbound. After death, you will not lie. So if Jesus is indeed the Christ, you will declare him such, just like everyone else will.

So what you are saying is that after death what limited agency we DID have will be totally taken away? What, am I going to try and lie and other words are going to come out of my mouth? Seems like more coercion here. Seems like more forced obedience and compulsion here.

Kick, kick, kick against the pricks, Infymus.

That is a term your religion created in order to justify doctrine being rejected.

Geez, you're an embarrassment. It's like watching a 5 year old throw a temper tantrum.

Because I won't accept your God? Because I will turn my back on your God? Because I won't OBEY? Or is it because I totally reject your religion?

Typical Mormon. You will see only what you want to see, and anyone else who rejects or objects is either an embarrassment or is throwing a tantrum. Because really, in the end, according to you, it doesn't matter, they are going to have to obey or be punished. Again you completely and totally misunderstand my original post about free agency and the POS(tm).

Jesus Christ Harmony, why don't you STFU and go back to church where you belong.

I really think you are missing the point. Did you read any of my remarks on this topic?

[_wenglund]

As a cardiac patient, I was very interested in the medicinal effects of red wine.

While my doctor told me the PC line of "Well, we can never encourage anyone to drink", he did tell me that, if I did, it would be better to drink red wine.

My mother has been a cardiac patient for several decades now, but the medicinal effects of red wine weren't of much interest to her because her father died of alcoholism (at an age much younger than when my mother began experiencing heart problems), and several of her siblings, children, and grandchildren have had alcohol problems as well. I suppose to her mind, the suggested "cure" may be worse than her "desease". ;-(

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Jason Bourne]

I'm not interested in changing the doctrine. I want to show that the Mormon POS(tm) is a doctrine of compulsion.

Again you are incorrect. There is no more compulsion in the LDS belief system then in the US judicial system or in the law of physics. You are free to choose. You are not free from the consequences. Same for the law of gravity. You can jump off a cliff if you wish. You will be hurt very badly or dead as a result. But you are still free to do so. Are you really such a simpleton that you are missing this?

A doctrine full of prisons to hold those who will not obey or who will not agree with the Mormon God. To show that there is an infinite number of prisons full of human beings who really had no choice.

So for you the USA has no free will. Free will means to do what you want without any consequence that may be negative. Please demonstrate where such a system exists.

My argument is that Free Agency or Free Will does not exist because a plan is already in place and the outcome is certain. Mormons state the outcome isn't certain because we can CHOOSE the outcome by our behavior. My argument is that why can't we get out of the plan and choose a different plan? Why can't we judge God? Is Mormonism the only plan available in the whole universe? Is there nothing else we can do?

Well it really only matters it the Mormons are correct. So don't sweat it if you don't believe it. But you are wrong to say, as I have more the adequately demonstrated, that the Mormon beliefs do not encompass free will.

[_silentkid]

Didn't the UofW Medical School do a study a while back showing that grape juice has the same flavonoids that wine has that make wine beneficial.

Flavonoids shmavonoids...wine is gross. I'll take grains over grapes any day. Grape juice is gross, too. I prefer the purple-drink that comes in the gallon jugs for 99 cents at the local grocery store. Didn't Chapelle do a skit about the purple-drink? Sorry this is so off-topic.

The article was a good read.

[_harmony]

The thing is, you will have that choice. You will not take that choice, even though you say you will now, but in the face of incontrovertable evidence of the divinity of Jesus Christ, you will bend your knee and bow your head, because to do otherwise would be lying. And you will not be able to lie at that point.

I don't give a sh*t WHO he is. I love this because it is driving you crazy. I don't care who he is. I don't care if I have 1000% knowledge of who he is. I will NOT bow. I will NOT obey.

[Moderator Note---Please refrain from using the sh-- word in the Terrestrial Forum. Thank you. Liz]

You don't know that. And no, it's not driving me crazy at all. You're the one who's protesting with capital letters, not me.

The ability to lie, to sin, is earthbound. After death, you will not lie. So if Jesus is indeed the Christ, you will declare him such, just like everyone else will.

So what you are saying is that after death what limited agency we DID have will be totally taken away? What, am I going to try and lie and other words are going to come out of my mouth? Seems like more coercion here. Seems like more forced obedience and compulsion here.

I'm saying agency is earthly. When you're dead, there's no reason to lie. Everyone will know the truth, including you.

I find it so amusing that you still carry the Mormon worldview of the afterlife. That you even assume there will be an afterlife is totally funny.

Kick, kick, kick against the pricks, Infymus.

That is a term your religion created in order to justify doctrine being rejected.

I use it for no other reason than it seems to suit your behavior.

Geez, you're an embarrassment. It's like watching a 5 year old throw a temper tantrum.

Because I won't accept your God? Because I will turn my back on your God? Because I won't OBEY? Or is it because I totally reject your religion?

No, because you state emphatically that you want discussion, then you reject anyone else's ideas without ever addressing them, in favor of throwing a temper tantrum. You mirror my 5 year old grandson's immature reactions almost perfectly.

Typical Mormon.

I'm a convert, Infymus. That makes me an atypical Mormon, by definition.

You will see only what you want to see, and anyone else who rejects or objects is either an embarrassment or is throwing a tantrum. Because really, in the end, according to you, it doesn't matter, they are going to have to obey or be punished. Again you completely and totally misunderstand my original post about free agency and the POS(tm).

Jesus Christ Harmony, why don't you STFU and go back to church where you belong.

Shut up? Why? Because you said to? Not gonna happen. Poking you results in far too much amusement for me to stop now. We don't muzzle people here. We let you have a temper tantrum... and the rest of us get to watch. Telling someone to STFU is almost as bad as telling them to leave, and we simply don't do that here. Shades frowns on that, and some of us at least try to keep him happy.

[_Infymus]

Again you are incorrect. There is no more compulsion in the LDS belief system then in the US judicial system or in the law of physics. You are free to choose. You are not free from the consequences. Same for the law of gravity. You can jump off a cliff if you wish. You will be hurt very badly or dead as a result. But you are still free to do so. Are you really such a simpleton that you are missing this?

I'm going to ignore all of this because it is beyond the point. It is very typical for Mormons to go into this kind of lengthy extrapolation because they think these two things equate. If someone is saying there is no such thing as free agency in Mormonism, they typically break down into things such as gravity, judicial systems, etc, etc, and totally miss the point.

You are free to choose. You are not free from the consequences.

Typical Mormon speak.

There is no free agency in Mormonism. Period.

Why is it so hard for you Mormons to understand this?

I have tried to explain, and failed. Again, typical Mormonism. You will not see what you do not want to see.

Harmony sat there and tried to tell me that I would bow before the Mormon Jesus because the proof would be so pure and perfect, that I would acknowledge and bow. She could not comprehend that I would still turn my back on God and say NO.

You can't fathom that I would want to be completely on the outside of Mormonism completely.

Here you go. If I am free to choose, then I want out. I don't want the first, second or third kingdoms. I don't want outer darkness. I want to be free from all of it. Don't make me a god, don't put me in your prison worlds the Mormon God calls "Kingdoms". I don't want to be in with Satan and his so-called followers.

I want completely out and to be free to do what I want to do.

The only way you have the ability to grant this to me, is to wave me off saying the following:

Well it really only matters it the Mormons are correct.

So be it. I can see the Mormon mind going "Illogical... Illogical... Illogical"

[_Jason Bourne]

Again you are incorrect. There is no more compulsion in the LDS belief system then in the US judicial system or in the law of physics. You are free to choose. You are not free from the consequences. Same for the law of gravity. You can jump off a cliff if you wish. You will be hurt very badly or dead as a result. But you are still free to do so. Are you really such a simpleton that you are missing this?

I'm going to ignore all of this because it is beyond the point. It is very typical for Mormons to go into this kind of lengthy extrapolation because they think these two things equate. If someone is saying there is no such thing as free agency in Mormonism, they typically break down into things such as gravity, judicial systems, etc, etc, and totally miss the point.

You are free to choose. You are not free from the consequences.

Typical Mormon speak.

There is no free agency in Mormonism. Period.

Why is it so hard for you Mormons to understand this?

I have tried to explain, and failed. Again, typical Mormonism. You will not see what you do not want to see.

Harmony sat there and tried to tell me that I would bow before the Mormon Jesus because the proof would be so pure and perfect, that I would acknowledge and bow. She could not comprehend that I would still turn my back on God and say NO.

You can't fathom that I would want to be completely on the outside of Mormonism completely.

Here you go. If I am free to choose, then I want out. I don't want the first, second or third kingdoms. I don't want outer darkness. I want to be free from all of it. Don't make me a god, don't put me in your prison worlds the Mormon God calls "Kingdoms". I don't want to be in with Satan and his so-called followers.

I want completely out and to be free to do what I want to do.

The only way you have the ability to grant this to me, is to wave me off saying the following:

Well it really only matters it the Mormons are correct.

So be it. I can see the Mormon mind going "Illogical... Illogical... Illogical"

I see again you miss every point. I really tried to explain it to you outside of Mormon speak.

Let's try this.


What does Free will mean to you? Do you have total free will in anything you do and id so what?

[_Jason Bourne]

Here you go. If I am free to choose, then I want out. I don't want the first, second or third kingdoms. I don't want outer darkness. I want to be free from all of it. Don't make me a god, don't put me in your prison worlds the Mormon God calls "Kingdoms". I don't want to be in with Satan and his so-called followers.

I want completely out and to be free to do what I want to do.

I see this more now. Of course I know this. My point about it only mattering if the Mormons are right is well just that. If they are not who cares? And if they are well all righty then.

What you want is total free will to do whatever you want with no consequence at all. So lets assume the Mormons are wrong and lets assume there is no God.

Now, free will. Where do you currently have it in the way you want it. Free from consequences.

[_rcrocket]

Typical Mormon speak.

There is no free agency in Mormonism. Period.

Why is it so hard for you Mormons to understand this?

As I have pointed out to you with quotes from Justin Martyr, Mormons don't have a monopoly on this doctrine. I am not impressed with people who insist upon attacking Mormonism for doctrines most of Christianity accepts. Free will, with consequences for rejecting God, is one of them.

There are plenty of Mormon issues you can attack which Christianity does not embrace.

rcrocket