This book made me laugh too many times.

[_karl61]

One other things is when Lincoln signed the anti-bigamy law in 1862, the Church should have seen the writing on the wall. If their leaders had any ability to look into the future, they should have seen they were investing in something that would come crashing down. One of the things that I didn't see was that the Church helping the women and children who were involved in polygamy. It says in the book that they had to look out for themselves, but I sure hope they had a daily pass to the Bishops store house. If they didn't then that would be a big time failure on the Church leadership.

[_karl61]

One thing about this book is you learn that they didn't like lawyer, they didn't like gentile law, but had their own law which can be dangerous and usally time tell's it is dangerous. One thing that was interesting in early Utah was that if a member of the Church filed suit against another member in a U.S Court the Church would hold a court and excommunicate the person that filed the suit.

With regards to missouri. No one forced the saints to create the danites; no one forced the saints to ambush missouri state troops at crooked river (LDS Historian Stephen C. Lesuer has Joseph organizing and leading the ambush); no one forced the saints to burn down Davies County and bring the goods from the homes to the Bishop storehouse; They had Caldwell County created for them to keep the peace but they thought all the area was there's and God and his angels were on the their side.

Missouri has enough blame for everyone involved. I'm a believer in the teaching that when there are battles and wars both sides screwed up. Zion is invincible. According to our scriptures Zion either has it's enemys' hearts softened so they won't fight or God fights their battles without them. We were not Zion. Too many LDS blame the Missourians for what happened. In the D&C while the Lord allows the people to seek redress legally it also tells the Saints that they screwed up and that is why it was all allowed to happen to them. Individuals on both sides are guilty of what happened and I don't want to diminish that but it's in canonized scripture that if the Saints had done what they were supposed to do the Lamanites...I mean Missourians would have no power over them.

I think the Saints should have focused on how the saints in the first century dealt with a hostile government. If the Missouri saints had just followed the example of the first century saints then they would have still been there and Nauvoo and Salt Lake would not have occured. Joseph could have lived to an old age.

[_asbestosman]

In another thread you stated that

One of the reason the Government took the Church property was so it could create public schools, which the leaders of the Church were against. It was Church leaders that had private teachers for their children which were paid for by the tithes of the poor converts who were immigrants.

Does your book speak of that too, or is that only in The Mormon Question by Sarah Barrianger Gordon. It seems related somehow.

Actually I'm very curious about this if anyone else has more information. Frankly I'm surprised that you're the first I've heard it from. Details would be nice since I doubt my library will cary that book and I further doubt that I'd want to purchase it just for that.

Thanks

[Guest]

In another thread you stated that

One of the reason the Government took the Church property was so it could create public schools, which the leaders of the Church were against. It was Church leaders that had private teachers for their children which were paid for by the tithes of the poor converts who were immigrants.

Does your book speak of that too, or is that only in The Mormon Question by Sarah Barrianger Gordon. It seems related somehow.

Actually I'm very curious about this if anyone else has more information. Frankly I'm surprised that you're the first I've heard it from. Details would be nice since I doubt my library will cary that book and I further doubt that I'd want to purchase it just for that.

Thanks

That was my quote from Sarah Barrianger Gordon on another thread. I will look it up tonight. But she did write that one of the reasons that they took Church property was to set up public schools. If I recall correctly there is a picture of Elder Cannon's children - all neatly dressed and she writes about the leaders children getting private education. If I recall correctly one person that was an advocate of Public Schools was excommunicated by BY.

[_The Nehor]

I think the Saints should have focused on how the saints in the first century dealt with a hostile government. If the Missouri saints had just followed the example of the first century saints then they would have still been there and Nauvoo and Salt Lake would not have occured. Joseph could have lived to an old age.

Perhaps but the First Century Saints went on to Apostasy. Makes it difficult for us to accept them as the ones who got it right.

[Guest]

asbestosman, here is some information from The Mormon Question by Sarah Barringer Gordon.

page 217: "In Bradley's view, the forfeiture of church property was an essential means of vindiating Christian civilization and thus affirming the internation law of charities. The Vermont example, he emphazied, demonstrated that the public schools wre appropriate recipients of the propertyof a failed charity. Mormon's traditional opposition to public education, needless to say, made the insult comparable to the diversion of synagogue funds to establish a foundling hospital in England two centuries earlier."

I don't understand the last sentence that well but need to reread what lead up to that thought.

also same book pg 199:

In vain did the Saints protest that their love of learning had made them an extraordinarily literate society, and point to the founding of instituions of higher learning almost from the moment that the territory was settled. Even those most articulate and learned, including George Q Cannon, frequently combined a vigorous progam of reading and inquiry with the conviction that education was a private matter. Cannon built a school house on his family compound outside Salt Lake City to educate his forty-three children, but many Mormons could not afford such private solutions. Local schools, although they did exist in many communities by the 1880's, generally were privately financed and understaffed. Equally important, antipolygamists were concerned that the Mormons inculcated their children with an Anti-Democratic, unchristian faith, instead of the "secular" republican curriculum that non-Mormons supported for the territory. Lack of formal (and publicly financed) school became a key ingredient in the assumption that genuinely competitive behavior and equality were incosistent with Mormonism. As one Mormon proponent of public schools quipped shortly before he was excommunicated how could Brigham Young understand the value of education when he could "hardly spell half-a dozen consecutive words correctly" or "write a correct sentence in his native tongue"

on page 217 it has a picture of the tithing store which " was among the properties forfeited under the Edmunds-Tucker Act.

Buy the book, it's worth it.

[_karl61]

I think the Saints should have focused on how the saints in the first century dealt with a hostile government. If the Missouri saints had just followed the example of the first century saints then they would have still been there and Nauvoo and Salt Lake would not have occured. Joseph could have lived to an old age.

Perhaps but the First Century Saints went on to Apostasy. Makes it difficult for us to accept them as the ones who got it right.

so we shouldn't accept Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - the gospels -

[_The Nehor]

I think the Saints should have focused on how the saints in the first century dealt with a hostile government. If the Missouri saints had just followed the example of the first century saints then they would have still been there and Nauvoo and Salt Lake would not have occured. Joseph could have lived to an old age.

Perhaps but the First Century Saints went on to Apostasy. Makes it difficult for us to accept them as the ones who got it right.

so we shouldn't accept Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - the gospels -

Didn't say everything went wrong.

[_karl61]

one thing I have looked for recently and can't find is a list of Lorenzo Snow's wives. If I recall correctly , about twenty-five years ago, I saw a church news article that showed a picture of a seventeen year old girl who Lorenzo married when he was in his seventies. I remember thinking at the time that it seemed pretty wierd.

[_Runtu]

one thing I have looked for recently and can't find is a list of Lorenzo Snow's wives. If I recall correctly , about twenty-five years ago, I saw a church news article that showed a picture of a seventeen year old girl who Lorenzo married when he was in his seventies. I remember thinking at the time that it seemed pretty wierd.

If I recall correctly, Snow fathered his youngest child at age 82.