This book made me laugh too many times.

[_The Nehor]

Um, no. They were following the same pattern that got them rightfully kicked out of Missouri.

That was an idiotic comment. The building of Nauvoo and the LDS settlement in Missouri didn't even follow the same pattern to start off....or are you that ignorant?

[_Scottie]

Where do you get the idea that Joseph Smith or anyone else can control anyone? Joseph was telling the LDS again and again to repent or be destroyed. We had and still have Missionaries saying the same thing.

Oh come on Nehor. For crying out loud, he had the Saint's eating out of his hand. Just look at the subject we're talking about! He commanded a militia, commanded men to surrender their wives to him, told the saints to live in swampy death-holes...I mean, these people were more than willing to die for him. Even without his prophetic authority, he was mayor and commander of the militia. You don't think that alone gives him control? Add to that his followers religious devotion and he had 100% complete control over them. You can honestly tell me he didn't??

Also, CFR on Joseph Smith ever saying to the saints, "repent or be destroyed" when commanding this militia. Everything I've heard is that they believed God was on their side and would help them win this little war.

[_karl61]

I think the Utah saints were very lucky that the U.S Government dealt with them through the Courts and Congress as most of the Presidents, during early Utah history, were former Union Generals who knew how to fight wars.

[_The Nehor]

Where do you get the idea that Joseph Smith or anyone else can control anyone? Joseph was telling the LDS again and again to repent or be destroyed. We had and still have Missionaries saying the same thing.

Oh come on Nehor. For crying out loud, he had the Saint's eating out of his hand. Just look at the subject we're talking about! He commanded a militia, commanded men to surrender their wives to him, told the saints to live in swampy death-holes...I mean, these people were more than willing to die for him. Even without his prophetic authority, he was mayor and commander of the militia. You don't think that alone gives him control? Add to that his followers religious devotion and he had 100% complete control over them. You can honestly tell me he didn't??

Also, CFR on Joseph Smith ever saying to the saints, "repent or be destroyed" when commanding this militia. Everything I've heard is that they believed God was on their side and would help them win this little war.

Willing to fight and die for him? Some maybe. Most, I doubt it. I can't find any references during that time off-hand and don't have the time to look for them. However taking what Joseph Smith (and God) said as a whole in his writings and in the D&C he had no delusions about perfection amongst the Saints or that they could create Zion without severe repentance.

[_Scottie]

Where do you get the idea that Joseph Smith or anyone else can control anyone? Joseph was telling the LDS again and again to repent or be destroyed. We had and still have Missionaries saying the same thing.

Oh come on Nehor. For crying out loud, he had the Saint's eating out of his hand. Just look at the subject we're talking about! He commanded a militia, commanded men to surrender their wives to him, told the saints to live in swampy death-holes...I mean, these people were more than willing to die for him. Even without his prophetic authority, he was mayor and commander of the militia. You don't think that alone gives him control? Add to that his followers religious devotion and he had 100% complete control over them. You can honestly tell me he didn't??

Also, CFR on Joseph Smith ever saying to the saints, "repent or be destroyed" when commanding this militia. Everything I've heard is that they believed God was on their side and would help them win this little war.

Willing to fight and die for him? Some maybe. Most, I doubt it. I can't find any references during that time off-hand and don't have the time to look for them. However taking what Joseph Smith (and God) said as a whole in his writings and in the D&C he had no delusions about perfection amongst the Saints or that they could create Zion without severe repentance.

See, I would say just the opposite.

How many saints died crossing the plains when they could have just up and said, "Screw this!! I'm going home!!"

I guess you could argue that they were dying for Mormonism, and not Joseph Smith or BY. But at that point in history, the line wasn't nearly as clearly drawn. Joseph Smith and BY WERE Mormonism.

[_moksha]

If I recall correctly, Snow fathered his youngest child at age 82.

Well, they always say that wrinkles, age spots and a cane are not important considerations for young women. Or at least they would say it if you could still hear properly.

[Gadianton]

I'm reading the book Zion in the courts - a legal history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints 1830-1900 by Edown Brown Firmage and Richard Collin Mangrum. This book made me laugh too many times at what Church leaders tried to pull. Every page just makes me shake my head and say what are these guys thinking . It also made me realize that these Congressman and Justices writing in the 1800's were brilliant and a hundred times smarter than me. One thing I just read about was how the law started to catch up with LDS leaders. The book said that most of the men that practiced polygamy were bishops, stake presidents on up to the president of the church and it's apostles. Which are the ones that had tithing supporting a house of six woman and one man. Here's one regarding Lorenzo:

"Indeed, a polygamist might have contact with only one wife and still be convicted of cohoabitiation, if that one wife is not his legally recognized wife. Lorenzo Snow, for example, had married nine women over a thirty-year period, the last ten years before he was indicted for cohabitation. Two had died. In compliance, so he thought, with the law, the seventy-two year-old Snow had established his six older wives in six separate households and refrained from almost all contact with them. He lived soley with his youngest wife, who still had infant children to raise. Neverless, he was convicted or cohabitation. The Mormons could not win whatever they did, for Snow's efforts to comply with the law by separating himself from his wives scandalized the Utah Supreme Court, which unheld his convictions (United States v. Snow P. 9:501 [Utah 1886]: "as for his passion for one wife became satiated and dulled by indulgence and gratification, and his lust was again kindled by the appearance of a younger and fresher, or possibly more attractive, woman, he would marry again, until his marriages have been repeated nine times: The court purported to find Snow's case to be "one of the most aggravated cases and worst examples of polygamy".


So far in this book I have learned that in the early church Joseph Smith, Brigham Young etc tried to create a separate government from the United States, but that didn't blatently violate the U.S constitution. At the end of Nauvoo, Joseph had basically declared martial law. anyone could be stopped and questioned in Nauvoo. All warrants issued from outside had to be brought before Joseph and he would decide if a citizen of Nauvoo could be taken by a local Marshall. He had armed people at posts and commanded a huge private army.

The Church used current statutes of the state or territory to right rules that promoted what the priesthood directed for the saints. It became a chess game for fifty years. Congress and Presidents all viewed Polygamy as immoral and tried to stop it. They didn't like one man living in a house with multiple wives. The church and polygamy won many court battles even U.S supreme court battles which just caused congress and the President to counter it and tweak it with more legislation. In the end the result of promoting polygamy would hurt too many children and wives and some would say it was done at the selfishness of the men that promoted it.

I see that if nothing else, the book gives you the chance to look down your nose at the saints, and this discussion board gives you the chance to do it publically. The question I have, however, are you a better man for it? Are the saints made better thereby?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_karl61]

We should all learn from history but it appears that the early saints refused to learn or be taught anything by outsiders. I think it's funny/strange that people who report that they are lead by inspiration would make so many mistakes. If they wanted the restoration of all things and polygamy they should have settled in Caldwell County for twent-five years, saved their money, and then moved to Palestine.


But if you look up King of Mistakes you will likely see thestyleguy.

[_The Nehor]

Where do you get the idea that Joseph Smith or anyone else can control anyone? Joseph was telling the LDS again and again to repent or be destroyed. We had and still have Missionaries saying the same thing.

Oh come on Nehor. For crying out loud, he had the Saint's eating out of his hand. Just look at the subject we're talking about! He commanded a militia, commanded men to surrender their wives to him, told the saints to live in swampy death-holes...I mean, these people were more than willing to die for him. Even without his prophetic authority, he was mayor and commander of the militia. You don't think that alone gives him control? Add to that his followers religious devotion and he had 100% complete control over them. You can honestly tell me he didn't??

Also, CFR on Joseph Smith ever saying to the saints, "repent or be destroyed" when commanding this militia. Everything I've heard is that they believed God was on their side and would help them win this little war.

Willing to fight and die for him? Some maybe. Most, I doubt it. I can't find any references during that time off-hand and don't have the time to look for them. However taking what Joseph Smith (and God) said as a whole in his writings and in the D&C he had no delusions about perfection amongst the Saints or that they could create Zion without severe repentance.

See, I would say just the opposite.

How many saints died crossing the plains when they could have just up and said, "Screw this!! I'm going home!!"

I guess you could argue that they were dying for Mormonism, and not Joseph Smith or BY. But at that point in history, the line wasn't nearly as clearly drawn. Joseph Smith and BY WERE Mormonism.

I don't think so. Based on my journal readings the Saints loved Joseph but in the journals it was all praise to God and the Messiah coupled with talk of how the Spirit moved them to keep going.

[_Scottie]

I don't think so. Based on my journal readings the Saints loved Joseph but in the journals it was all praise to God and the Messiah coupled with talk of how the Spirit moved them to keep going.

Just curious here...does anyone know approx how many saints lived in Nauvoo and approx how many were a part of the militia?