Isn't it interesting?

[_Yoda]

I liked your example, but your suspicions about my motives are way off the mark. My intent is not to reactivate people, but to help us all to be happy, and this through continually being mindful of that ultimate objective and continually striving to keep our daily thoughts and actions aligned with that ultimate objective. If that results in reactivation in the Church, then great. If it doesn't, then as long as the objective is being met, I am fine with that as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm sorry if I misrepresented your motives. You have been known to argue in the past that the gospel road is the best way to happiness. If your mindset has changed or broadened on this, then I apologize.

:)

[_Scottie]

Yeah, Wade, that does clear it up a bit. Thanks.

In answer to your post, no, I don't think that emotion and logic can ever be completely separated.

Anybody that has been given marriage advice has heard the age old "Marriage isn't a 50/50 partnership, it's 100/100". This is great in logic, but in reality if you tried to practice it, one of you would end up getting walked all over. There is no practical way to reach a 100/100 agreement, even though we know the goal is to have a happy marriage.

For example, lets say your wife wanted to go out for the evening, but you wanted to stay in. Who should give in? In a 100/100 relationship, neither of you would be selfish. You would both want to give the other what they wanted, and neither of you would accept letting the other give in to you. So, at one point, one of you HAS to be selfish and allow the other person to give in. At this point, it is no longer a 100/100 relationship. One of you has been, by necessity, selfish. The emotions might say that you both want to give 100%, but the logic is that one of you has to give. In this case, the logic will bring you closer to your goal.

[_Inconceivable]

I think he is hoping that if more of the ex-Mormons here give into their feelings, they will reconnect with the Church, despite the logic that has driven them further away from the Church.

That's just a guess, though. I'll let Wade answer for himself.

;)

That's my impression of what he's suggesting.

I think Wade is certainly not alone in his logic. It's not an original idea.

I think Dolly Madison, Bristol Meyers, Hostess, the DNC, Captain Morgan, MLM and Hersheys would all tend to agree with him.

[_wenglund]

Awww, Wade....

:(

I'm so sorry.

What is it with all of these sweet guys with broken hearts? You, Bond, Nehor....

Where are you guys finding these mean Mormon women?

;)

Are you in a relationship now? I hope you are, or will be soon.

You deserve to be happy. :)

Well...she wasn't at all mean. In fact, she was one of the sweetest people I have ever known. Truth be told, while she wasn't perfect, she wasn't the main problem in the relationship. I was.

As it was, some other guy was fortunate enough to marry her, though from what I have heard he has been as clueless and problematic as I was (if not more so), and were it not for her graciousness and willness to suffer fools, that may ended as well.

But, I do appreciate your kind and compassionate expression. And, while I have moved in and out of several relationship since then, I have learned to find happiness whatever the case.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Who Knows]

I fail to see the difference between the two, honestly. They are pretty much one in the same. Doesn't emotion ultimately come from logic?

[_Scottie]

I fail to see the difference between the two, honestly. They are pretty much one in the same. Doesn't emotion ultimately come from logic?

Have you been around many women in your life???

No. Emotion and logic are often at wits with each other.

I'm sort of in Wade's same boat. My heart is telling me that I love this girl, but my logic is saying in the long run we would kill each other. Unfortunately, my emotions are winning.

[_Runtu]

I fail to see the difference between the two, honestly. They are pretty much one in the same. Doesn't emotion ultimately come from logic?

Have you been around many women in your life???

No. Emotion and logic are often at wits with each other.

I'm sort of in Wade's same boat. My heart is telling me that I love this girl, but my logic is saying in the long run we would kill each other. Unfortunately, my emotions are winning.

What's that line from "As Good As It Gets"?

Woman: How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.

Just kidding, ladies. :)

[_wenglund]

I've been thinking that my goals lately have been really short-term, as in I am simply trying to get through each day in one piece. As much as I would like to believe that I've put my episode of major depression behind me, I still recognize triggers and stressors every day, and I have to work hard to not let those things put me back in that state. So, maybe I don't have a long-term roadmap. That's a luxury I'll have once I can get past the day-to-day survival.

I know what you mean by taking each day at a time. I have been there myself.

However, what helped me maintain momentum and forward progress (nominal at times though it was), was to keep my eye on the prize and on the light at the end of the tunnel.

I picked up this strategy during my time as a long-distant runner. While jogging, when I would inevitably hit "the wall", where my feet and joints would start aching and my energy supply seemed entirely depleted and my breathing was labored, I would will myself to continue putting one foot in front of the other by imagining my destination and virtually experiencing the joy and elation I would feel once I arrived there. This made me less mindful of the difficulties I was experiencing, and more mindful of the runner's "high", which in turn helped re-invigerate me and made it possible for me to surmount the challenge and achieve my goal.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Who Knows]

I fail to see the difference between the two, honestly. They are pretty much one in the same. Doesn't emotion ultimately come from logic?

Have you been around many women in your life???

No. Emotion and logic are often at wits with each other.

I'm sort of in Wade's same boat. My heart is telling me that I love this girl, but my logic is saying in the long run we would kill each other. Unfortunately, my emotions are winning.

What is your 'heart'? What does that really mean?

Who says these 'emotional' feelings, aren't really just logic in disguise - logic we can't understand?

[_Who Knows]

I found this, which better describes what I was thinking:

All emotion is logical. Yes, that means that your mother was being logical when she hyperventilated and cussed the guy next door out because she thought he was stealing her newspaper. "But hey, that wasn't logical - it didn't help, and the guy wasn't even stealing the newspaper!" Ahh, but it was logical.

It is a common error to associate logic with truth. They are NOT the same. It is well known in logic that a perfectly valid argument can be total nonsense. People do many things that are logical but explicitly false, or at least subjectively contingent. Emotion falls under this description - when you decide to buy that new big-screen TV because you want to, you are making a logic-based decision.

The argument against emotion-as-logic is normally "why then, if we all use logic, do we emotionally respond differently." Simple. The logical weight of your premise was inherently linked to factors unique to your calculation- the importance and truth of your premise for getting the TV was weighted completely differently in your mind that, say, your wife's. But when your wife wants you not to get the TV, it is not for an indeterministic reason - it is because she has very specific reasons which serve as premises in her logical calculation for the desire.

All that is necessary for an emotion to appear illogical is for different individuals to take into account different truth values for the same premise, or add/subtract different premises from their calculation. But it is still logic.

And before I offend the pro-emotion, anti-logic fighters among us, I can say the reverse: all logic is emotional. It is true - logic is based entirely on beliefs associated with the premises and rules of an argument. These beliefs, down to the axiomatic basis, are not demonstrably true. Each individual, when practicing logic, places particular weights on what he believes to be true or false, or what he believes must be the logical interactions of his beliefs. Is the logic he practices right? Who knows - it is emotion.

It's from this site. I have no idea who or what that site is, but it made sense.