Isn't it interesting?

[_Who Knows]

Can you give me an example of pure emotion, no logic?

I just now came across a perfect example of logic-free emotions. It is the last post from Infymus on the thread HERE--at the bottom of the page (Warning: bad language).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm sure that post was logical to him.

Just because you don't see something as logical, does not mean there was no logic used. Two people can use logic, but arrive at different results.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Stuess....pass around the peyote. We're getting into some deep philosophical crap here...

I believe gramps is the official "Keeper of the Bong".

[_wenglund]

I see pure logic in every example you gave.

It seems logical to me that I scream when I hit my finger with a hammer. It hurts, therefore I'm in pain, therefore I'm mad, therefore I react with a scream, which makes me feel better.

Baby is hungry. Therefore its tummy hurts, therefore it cries (potentially for a number of different logical reasons - to get someones attention, because it's sad, etc.).

You're happy while getting a runner's high because you have 'happy' chemicals running through your blood - and that reaction makes you happy.

Cloudy weather darkens some peoples moods - perhaps for a number of different reasons - they don't like darkness, they don't like rain, etc. - they are happier when it's sunny.

Again, read the blurb I posted earlier. It's at the end of the first page of the thread.

Do you understand the difference between emotions coming from logic and emotions making logical sense?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Who Knows]

Do you understand the difference between emotions coming from logic and emotions making logical sense?

I'm not really sure what you're asking. Can you explain? Maybe an example of each?

[_Who Knows]

Let me try to clarify. I'm not suggesting that there's no such thing as emotion. Nor am I suggesting that emotion doesn't factor into decision making.

What I am suggesting is that logic and emotion are so intertwined, that they can't be separated out - ie., john's a logical decision maker, while jane's an emotional decision maker. Or, john based his decision purely on logic, or jane based her decision purely on emotion.

Here is what I posted earlier, which hopefully explains better what I was thinking:

All emotion is logical. Yes, that means that your mother was being logical when she hyperventilated and cussed the guy next door out because she thought he was stealing her newspaper. "But hey, that wasn't logical - it didn't help, and the guy wasn't even stealing the newspaper!" Ahh, but it was logical.

It is a common error to associate logic with truth. They are NOT the same. It is well known in logic that a perfectly valid argument can be total nonsense. People do many things that are logical but explicitly false, or at least subjectively contingent. Emotion falls under this description - when you decide to buy that new big-screen TV because you want to, you are making a logic-based decision.

The argument against emotion-as-logic is normally "why then, if we all use logic, do we emotionally respond differently." Simple. The logical weight of your premise was inherently linked to factors unique to your calculation- the importance and truth of your premise for getting the TV was weighted completely differently in your mind that, say, your wife's. But when your wife wants you not to get the TV, it is not for an indeterministic reason - it is because she has very specific reasons which serve as premises in her logical calculation for the desire.

All that is necessary for an emotion to appear illogical is for different individuals to take into account different truth values for the same premise, or add/subtract different premises from their calculation. But it is still logic.

And before I offend the pro-emotion, anti-logic fighters among us, I can say the reverse: all logic is emotional. It is true - logic is based entirely on beliefs associated with the premises and rules of an argument. These beliefs, down to the axiomatic basis, are not demonstrably true. Each individual, when practicing logic, places particular weights on what he believes to be true or false, or what he believes must be the logical interactions of his beliefs. Is the logic he practices right? Who knows - it is emotion.

[_wenglund]

Do you understand the difference between emotions coming from logic and emotions making logical sense?

I'm not really sure what you're asking. Can you explain? Maybe an example of each?

It is the difference between logic causing emotion and logic evaluating emotion.

An example of logic causing emotion might be to think:

That old man in the passing lane in front of me is driving below the speed limit.
Other cars are going too slow in the other lanes and are blocking me from getting around him.
The old man is going to make me late for work and potentially cause me to loose my job.
I can't afford to loose my job.
This makes me (insert emotion here)

An example of an emotion that is not caused by logic, but may be evalutated as logical, might be to think: it makes logical sense that an otherwise depressed patient would feel euphoric after taking GHB since that is a common affect of the drug.

So, not all emotion come from logic, though they may be viewed as logical.

I just read your blurb, and I agree with it in principle. In fact, it echos sentiments that I have expressed on several occasions in the past on this board (perhaps you may remember my example of being yelled at while jogging by a presumed schizophrenic, and thinking he was irrational, though on later reflection acknowledging that his actions were logical to his mind).

However, what may be problematic is the varied usages of the word "logical". Some people, if not most, may consider the word "logical" to be short-hand for "logically sound and valid" or "rational". Others, such as the author of the blurb, may view it as referring to ideas that have the form of logic (premises and conclusions), or can be rendered in the form of logic. Still others may equate it with cognitions or thought processes of any form. Etc. And, depending upon the usage or meaning one has in mind, the arguments in the blurb you cited may be sound and valid, or not.

What ever the case, I hope my original point doesn't get lost in these details.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_moksha]

One of the reasons I started the thread on "Assuring a Successful Life Journey" was to suggest the possibilities that our day-to-day thoughts and actions may often, or at least at times, be unwittingly at cross-purposes with our ultimate objectives or not lend themselves to achieving our ultimate objective.

For example, while my ultimate objective has always been to achieve a fullness and epitomy of happiness, joy, and love, there were many times in my life when my thoughts and actions were ruled almost exclusively by logic. In other words, my goal was purely emotional, but my approach was purely reason-based. Ironically, for the longest time, with all my deference to reasoning, I couldn't see the disconnect between my goal and my practice. It didn't occur to me that I couldn't very well achieve the height of certain emotions using a means that was virtually absent of emotions nor geared towards emotions.

As for now, I haven't abandoned reason, but I find it more functional to balance my reasoning with emotion, and to frequently check to make sure that my reasoning and emotions lend themselves to best achieving my ultimate objective.

Am I alone in this? Or, have you also experienced a disconnect between your goals and practice, though not necessarily in the same way as expressed above? And, if the latter, could you give some examples?


Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It is important to be with the moment and not overthink things, or at least that is what Werner Erhard taught in est. On the other hand, I have been counseled to think before I act. What's a guy to do?

Two thoughts come to mind: Desiring to be what you are not can cause suffering. Also, that happiness is where you find it and and I know I laid it around here somewhere.

My thoughts Wade, are to find joy in all the people you meet. That and perhaps kayaking the Yukon River.

[_Who Knows]

An example of an emotion that is not caused by logic, but may be evalutated as logical, might be to think: it makes logical sense that an otherwise depressed patient would feel euphoric after taking GHB since that is a common affect of the drug.

So, not all emotion come from logic, though they may be viewed as logical.

I see what you're saying.

However, what I meant to convey (if i didn't) was how this (logic vs. emotion) affects decision making.

In other words, you stated that your decision regarding opening the car door was purely logical. And that if you had made an 'emotionally based' decision, you might have made a different one.

I was simply trying to suggest that there would be no difference. The 2 are intertwined. Your 'logical' decision was mixed with emotion. Likewise, if you had come to a different decision that you thought might have been 'emotional', i would assert that it would have been as equally 'logical' as the first decision.

Hopefully i made sense.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Who says these 'emotional' feelings, aren't really just logic in disguise - logic we can't understand?

I rarely understand my "logic".

[_Inconceivable]

And, if you think there is any way I might help de-escalate or dissappate your anger, or even minimize the personal costs, please don't hesitate to ask.

Nah. But I'll let you know once I've figured you out. Until then, go be happy. Thanks.