There is no free will in Mormonism

[_Jersey Girl]

F*** you Merc. I didn't "give up" and nor did I let that fencing sitting **** Harmony win.

What's a coont? Is that some uber secret ex-LDS speak that I'm not privy to?

I think he was trying, in his own way, to spell "cunt", and thus take another swipe at me.

The misspelling kinda takes the sting out, ya know?

No harm,

I'm afraid that you've got it all wrong. The boy was actually giving compliment to your beautiful coat uh...hair and post a variation of what appears to be a dirty word when what he really meant to do was immortalize you as this:

The "Coont"



The "Coont", you see, is an exotic and rare member of the RacCOON family, thus the variation "Coont". The "Coont" as you can see has a silvery white coat (just like you!) and is treasured by anyone who has the privilege of sighting one much less interacting with one. Kind of like the mythical unicorn!

The eye liner is a bit much, but isn't that just the picture of you harmony?

[_wenglund]

Alrighty...

I think the problem I have with this idea of free agency is the other idea that god is omniscient. If he knows all, then he knows what we will "choose", he knows where we will end up, and he knows whether we're screwed or not before the game begins. So it begs the question, "Why would he even bother?" (Not to mention "what's the point of Judgment Day?")

It's just so damn silly. In the most basic and fundamental terms, the gospel makes no freaking sense at all.

Have you seen the movie "Minority Report"? It touches on this philosophical issue, though in a secular and much more limited way.

The problem with your question is that it fails to take into account a large portion of the life-equation. It looks alone at things in terms of outcome, and in a mono-dimensional way, without considering the processes often needed to produce those outcome.

It's somewhat like asking a physical trainer: "If you know, with perfect certainty, that through your program, and according to individual choice and action, which of your clients will become healthy, fit, and strong, and which will get fatter, or which will end up somewhere inbetween, then why would you even bother putting any of them through your program? What's the point of the check-up at the end of the program? Why not now just give those obese clients you know would become healthy and fit, a clean bill of health, and be done with it?

Wouldn't that be "damn silly"?

The same is true for the plan of salvation--which requires actual obedience to certain laws (not to be confused with perfect knowledge that certain people will obey those laws) in order to attain the subsequent blessings. It requires personal growth in love and "truth", and a change in one's nature (from carnal to spiritual) via spiritual progression, to become like Christ and his father. These are things that cannot be endowed, but must be experienced and earned.

I realize that this doesn't fit the stereptyped answer that silentkid expected from apologists, but there it is.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mercury]

The problem with your question is that it fails to take into account a large portion of the life-equation. It looks alone at things in terms of outcome, and in a mono-dimensional way, without considering the processes often needed to produce those outcome.

Once again you demonstrate that you don't have a f****** clue as to what you are talking about. All in all, an omnicient being would KNOW if you will sin, would KNOW what motivates you, etc. its silly and pedantic to come up with your puttering stupidity equating minority report with a free will argument.

Laughable, as always, you f****** tool. Thanks for ruining minority report for me.

[_wenglund]

The problem with your question is that it fails to take into account a large portion of the life-equation. It looks alone at things in terms of outcome, and in a mono-dimensional way, without considering the processes often needed to produce those outcome.

Once again you demonstrate that you don't have a f****** clue as to what you are talking about. All in all, an omnicient being would KNOW if you will sin, would KNOW what motivates you, etc. its silly and pedantic to come up with your puttering stupidity equating minority report with a free will argument.

Laughable, as always, you f****** tool. Thanks for ruining minority report for me.

Ironically, in your livid haste to insult me, you clearly missed my simple, reasonable, and obvious point. I am fully aware that an omnicient being "would KNOW if you will sin, would KNOW what motivates you, etc.". Nothing I said could rationally be interpreted as suggesting otherwise (which explains why you did just that). In fact, I explicitly accounted for it in my "physical trainer" analogy. Sorry you failed to either read or comprehend it.

But, feel free to work yourself up into an apopletic fit over your misunderstanding. Such fits your unwittingly cartoonish flare. ;-)

By the way, my intent wasn't to ruin Minority Report, but rather to note certain philosophical issues I see addressed in the movie (whether intentionally or otherwise), that may not have been detected by certain other viewer. Apparently, in your case, you lack the capacity grasp them. So, you have yourself to thank for that movie supposedly being ruined.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_silentkid]

I realize that this doesn't fit the stereptyped answer that silentkid expected from apologists, but there it is.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That "stereotyped answer" comes from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

[_Mercury]

The problem with your question is that it fails to take into account a large portion of the life-equation. It looks alone at things in terms of outcome, and in a mono-dimensional way, without considering the processes often needed to produce those outcome.

Once again you demonstrate that you don't have a f****** clue as to what you are talking about. All in all, an omnicient being would KNOW if you will sin, would KNOW what motivates you, etc. its silly and pedantic to come up with your puttering stupidity equating minority report with a free will argument.

Laughable, as always, you f****** tool. Thanks for ruining minority report for me.

Ironically, in your livid haste to insult me, you clearly missed my simple, reasonable, and obvious point. I am fully aware that an omnicient being "would KNOW if you will sin, would KNOW what motivates you, etc.". Nothing I said could rationally be interpreted as suggesting otherwise (which explains why you did just that). In fact, I explicitly accounted for it in my "physical trainer" analogy. Sorry you failed to either read or comprehend it.

But, feel free to work yourself up into an apopletic fit over your misunderstanding. Such fits your unwittingly cartoonish flare. ;-)

By the way, my intent wasn't to ruin Minority Report, but rather to note certain philosophical issues I see addressed in the movie (whether intentionally or otherwise), that may not have been detected by certain other viewer. Apparently, in your case, you lack the capacity grasp them. So, you have yourself to thank for that movie supposedly being ruined.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I comprehended your "analogy" wade in the way I comprehend the irrational reasoning of a child.

Here is the thing wade, insulting you is like a garnish on a grand slam plate from dennys. You always get it even if you don't want it. Its just part of what I do. It drives the point home that you are a loser with nothing to really live for.

As for my lack of wit, I have more wit in my little finger than you have in your whole body.

The continually piss-poor analogies that spew forth from your conflicted village-idiot mentality do not prove anything aside from the fact that once again, you believe that truth can be obtained by making poor analogies. Outcome-based reasoning is what LOGIC is about. Instead your process involves stringing together a post devoid of anything substantial and instead stand behind the pathetic attempt at discussing the implications of your omnipotent imaginary friend.

Homer: "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?"

You end up with no way out. Either he is all knowing or he is limited. If he is all knowing then that breaks the ability for him to create a situation in which the futility of being tested is made evident. You fail to understand this, which is no surprise to me.

if god is limited then he is not god.

Oh look, god just exploded into a cloud of logic.

[_harmony]

No harm,

I'm afraid that you've got it all wrong. The boy was actually giving compliment to your beautiful coat uh...hair and post a variation of what appears to be a dirty word when what he really meant to do was immortalize you as this:

The "Coont"



The "Coont", you see, is an exotic and rare member of the RacCOON family, thus the variation "Coont". The "Coont" as you can see has a silvery white coat (just like you!) and is treasured by anyone who has the privilege of sighting one much less interacting with one. Kind of like the mythical unicorn!

The eye liner is a bit much, but isn't that just the picture of you harmony?

Ahhh.. isn't that sweet!

[_A Light in the Darkness]

It is true that a choice isn't normally said to be "free" if it is coerced. So if I put a gun to your head and tell you to dance, you dancing wasn't a choice you made of your own free will. If I were to say, "You had a free choice: dancing or risking being shot. Therefore your free will is intact," I would be making a dubious claim.

However, if I merely warn you of natural consequences that exist for your actions, it is not as intuitive to say you lack free will. So if I tell you that jumping out of a building will cause you to fall to your death, that does not mean you are being coerced out of your choices. If you think it is, then it is clear that you don't believe in free will at all. That or you think there are no innate undesirable consequences for your choices. Choose your horn. Mormon theology is much more like the latter scenario than the former. We are informed about the natural eternal consequences of our behavior.

[_Mercury]

It is true that a choice isn't normally said to be "free" if it is coerced. So if I put a gun to your head and tell you to dance, you dancing wasn't a choice you made of your own free will. If I were to say, "You had a free choice: dancing or risking being shot. Therefore your free will is intact," I would be making a dubious claim.

You just proved my point. Thanks. The church holds a proverbial gun to those it has coerced into believing in the Mormon fantasy. If you say otherwise you are foolish.

[_The Nehor]

It is true that a choice isn't normally said to be "free" if it is coerced. So if I put a gun to your head and tell you to dance, you dancing wasn't a choice you made of your own free will. If I were to say, "You had a free choice: dancing or risking being shot. Therefore your free will is intact," I would be making a dubious claim.

You just proved my point. Thanks. The church holds a proverbial gun to those it has coerced into believing in the Mormon fantasy. If you say otherwise you are foolish.

The Church has a gun to my head? What exactly is the bullet? You can't belong to our club anymore? Why it's virtually the Holocaust all over again. Despite how dangerous it is you left. Either you have incredible fortitude and strength of character to defy the norm or you just walked out and the threats didn't come. I'll give you three guesses as to which one I think it is and the first two don't count.