God The Monster - making sense of tragedy

[_harmony]

Some thoughts, disjointed though they may be, thanks to a variety of factors:

1. Why do we hold God responsible for our choices? Were he to interfere in any way in our choices, he would cease to be God. That we ignore or miss whatever promptings were given, if any, is not his fault. He has no reason to interfere directly when we intentionally ignore his warnings.

2. Why do we hold God responsible for the foibles of nature? The universe works as it works. The winds blow, the rain falls, the seas churn. The weather changes as we interact with the earth. For us to complain when God doesn't fix what we created is really stupid on our part. Why should he? Because we're dying from pollution and our own foolishness? We have to either deal with it or die. God has nothing to do with it.

3. Death is the enemy only because those with faith have too little of it and those with no faith have only fear. Death is the biggest fear mankind has. It is the end. Those platitudes that offend are little comfort to those whose faith is small, and zero comfort to those with no faith. Cease and desist with uttering them. Remember those who are gone, miss them, mourn them. Don't cut short that process. I think we in western society have subverted and shortchanged ourselves when we lose touch with that process.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Some thoughts, disjointed though they may be, thanks to a variety of factors:

1. Why do we hold God responsible for our choices? Were he to interfere in any way in our choices, he would cease to be God. That we ignore or miss whatever promptings were given, if any, is not his fault. He has no reason to interfere directly when we intentionally ignore his warnings.

I don't hold God responsible for my choices. Pro or con. Although it seems odd to hear religious folks attribute blessings to God and then distant God from tragedy. God finds lost puppies? Can he not be more useful than that? If not then why bother with him at all?

2. Why do we hold God responsible for the foibles of nature? The universe works as it works. The winds blow, the rain falls, the seas churn. The weather changes as we interact with the earth. For us to complain when God doesn't fix what we created is really stupid on our part. Why should he? Because we're dying from pollution and our own foolishness? We have to either deal with it or die. God has nothing to do with it.

I don't hold God responsible for "foibles of nature". Agreed! Nothing to do with it. Again wondering what precisely God does?

3. Death is the enemy only because those with faith have too little of it and those with no faith have only fear. Death is the biggest fear mankind has. It is the end. Those platitudes that offend are little comfort to those whose faith is small, and zero comfort to those with no faith. Cease and desist with uttering them. Remember those who are gone, miss them, mourn them. Don't cut short that process. I think we in western society have subverted and shortchanged ourselves when we lose touch with that process.

I do not fear non-existence. At all! I am not startled by the thought that I will cease to be and sleep and the earth will use me as it will. I rather like that idea actually. I love the idea that the process of decay and rebirth is all about us. God? Nah. Nature.

The only reason I fear death is I fret for those I would leave behind. That is the only fear of death I have. I don't fear death for others because I worry there is no heaven waiting for them. I fear death for others because I'm incredibly selfish and wish for them to be here with me.

[_beastie]

I concur with monkeys.

I don't hold God accountable for anything, because I don't think he exists.

The only fear is untimely deaths, that leave families devastated. Of course, it's always hard to lose a loved one, but losing an elderly loved one who has had the opportunity to live life fully is quite different than losing a child. Yes, it was a child who made a stupid mistake - but who among us did not make stupid mistakes as children?

At any rate, I have to give my community the props it deserves. I live in a very small town, and the turn out at this young man's funeral was astounding. There were as many people standing in the church courtyard as there were seated inside the church - and this is a fairly big church. Many people cared about this young man, and they turned out to show his family how much we all care, and how much we all hurt with them. I'm proud of us for that, even if - really in desperation and pain - we sometimes think of crazy rationalizations for why bad things happen with God on patrol.

[_harmony]

Some thoughts, disjointed though they may be, thanks to a variety of factors:

1. Why do we hold God responsible for our choices? Were he to interfere in any way in our choices, he would cease to be God. That we ignore or miss whatever promptings were given, if any, is not his fault. He has no reason to interfere directly when we intentionally ignore his warnings.

I don't hold God responsible for my choices. Pro or con. Although it seems odd to hear religious folks attribute blessings to God and then distant God from tragedy. God finds lost puppies? Can he not be more useful than that? If not then why bother with him at all?

Obviously I didn't target my comments well enough. Let me try again:

For those who believe in God, why do we hold him responsible... etc?

I have little experience in working with or being around people who don't believe in God in some form or another. The one work colleague I had who didn't believe in God changed her worldview as often as she changed her clothes... or we got another person in the office she viewed as above her in socio-economic status. Since I approach life from the worldview that God exists, I have little concept of the worldview of someone who doesn't share that basic belief.

[_huckelberry]

"I'm so sorry"

That may be about as much as we can say with words. It does not fall into the foolishness of proposing we have some explanation for the reasons for loss. we are ignorant of such things even if there was some reason in the mind of God for some tragedy. It seems entirely possible that God does not have special reasons for why the net of cause and effect hurts a particular person.

We live in a world where cause and effect plays out whether one thinks that shows God is not there or if you believe that is the sort of world God creates.

There is a matter that I have been ruminating about, questioning its appropriateness for posting. It lay behind my unproductive thread on Old Testament war. A thread on death might be just as an appropriate context as war.

In the last years of his life my father spent more time brooding about the war than he had in the years he was able to be active in life. His response to the experiences in Germany was to return to live life as best he could leaving the losses behind. He was not inclined to attach himself to things reminisent of the war. Perhaps some people were able to be relatively more pleased with their experiences. My fathers platoon was caught in the wrong end of a German field of fire and was cut to riibbons by machine gun and mortar fire. He was one of a few fortunate ones whose perforations were not lethal and was picked up by German soldiers to spend the rest of the war a prisoner.

Later he found it easier to talk of being in Paris after the war. That started better times. In his last years he did not speak a lot of detail about what bothered him. I could tell by the pointers that it was all of those young friends buddies and companions dead and in pieces in a German beat field. I have a picture of his platoon. My father looks almost a child. There are rows of young inocent faces. I can understand my father wondering the sense of it, they all died. Yes the war was necessary. Yes the battle as a whole was won by the American forces. The Nazis were destroyed, our genocidal project was a success. But what is it in life that makes such horrors necessary? He wondered if it made any sense to imagine living forever. Often he thought life made more sense coming to an end. Yet he was glad he lived through the war and made the life he lived.

When we buried him the local veterans sent some youn men to pay ritual military honor to a veteran. they placed the traditional image, rifle in the ground with combat boots and helmet. It said dead man clearer than the casket. In their words they spoke of him as part of the comrades in arms. I could almost see the ghosts of all those young men in his platoon coming to get their companion delayed in joining them in death.

the rest of us living are left to do in different ways the matter of living our life with courage and honor. When we so live we reweave the fabric of life with our hope caring and courage. That is we do that if we do not become cynical and selfish and choose to unweave instead. If we live by weaving we make a fabric that includes the hopes of those who suffer and die.

I understand that those who do not believe in God find themselves in the same spot of responsibity as believers in this context. Believers see God as promising that the fabric of life will be something including those who die prematurely and in the end be worth the suffering we must face in this life. We are making something for them. That hope makes God no monster even if it means believers have that same suffering as nonbelievers.

[_Livingstone22]

I think part of the allure of religion is the (false) sense of control it gives human beings over events that, in the end, completely beyond our control. Studies have show a positive correlation between superstitious behavior in general with an unpredictable, often dangerous, living environment. It’s frightening to realize that so much of what can seriously impact our lives in horrific ways is, in the end, completely beyond our control, so we appeal to a “greater being” who CAN control it – God. And when that doesn’t work, believers try to retain their worldview by explaining “why”.

Freud believed that religion was invented by men as grew up and realized their parents couldn't control everything. If there isn't a higher power who is "in control," then it seems like life is just hurdling through space, out of control, with no rhyme nor reason. I am terribly sorry to hear about this tragic accident--I too have had terrible life experiences in which I just cannot fathom how terrible this life is--with all its horror and pain. "The problem of evil," as it is often called is a humongous problem in the philosophy of religion on how a being, supposedly "all-powerful" and "all good" could allow such (natural and moral) evil to be present--therefore, does "God" even exist? Sometimes I really wonder why my parents were so careless, selfish, and cruel to bring me here....life is so utterly terrifying sometimes that I don't even know where to run for help--so fantastically horrifying that I can't breathe and throw up. Without the purpose of religion, I wonder why there would be much reason to perpetuate the human race.

Okay....now as I try to not be so pessimistic, I must say I have no idea why such things would happen to people....but it seems that is what life is all about--the search for purpose and meaning. I hope people can find something....anything that will give them that rest and happiness. Life will go on, and there are always people left with hearts and love to find comfort in.

[_beastie]

Livingstone,

Beautiful, thoughtful posts. I'll take the time to respond tonight, after work.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Freud believed that religion was invented by men as grew up and realized their parents couldn't control everything. If there isn't a higher power who is "in control," then it seems like life is just hurdling through space, out of control, with no rhyme nor reason. I am terribly sorry to hear about this tragic accident--I too have had terrible life experiences in which I just cannot fathom how terrible this life is--with all its horror and pain. "The problem of evil," as it is often called is a humongous problem in the philosophy of religion on how a being, supposedly "all-powerful" and "all good" could allow such (natural and moral) evil to be present--therefore, does "God" even exist? Sometimes I really wonder why my parents were so careless, selfish, and cruel to bring me here....life is so utterly terrifying sometimes that I don't even know where to run for help--so fantastically horrifying that I can't breathe and throw up. Without the purpose of religion, I wonder why there would be much reason to perpetuate the human race.

Okay....now as I try to not be so pessimistic, I must say I have no idea why such things would happen to people....but it seems that is what life is all about--the search for purpose and meaning. I hope people can find something....anything that will give them that rest and happiness. Life will go on, and there are always people left with hearts and love to find comfort in.

Wow! Livingstone!

Life can be terrifying. I've found life, at times, can be splendid as well. Without the times of despair would we be able to recognize, and embrace, the other? It seems for some of us there is more tragedy, more reckless hurdling through life with no direction. Perhaps through that journey the purpose can be found? I like to think so.

For me the purpose of life is to enjoy it. Relish every moment of it. Each tragic sob and every jubilant shout. Life just is. Nothing promised. Death is the same. Just is. While sounding trite; it's what we do between that matters. I don't know what more purpose I can ever find?

[_beastie]

Livingstone,

Your post really touched me.

My ex-father in law served on the front lines, in ditches, for eight months straight in Germany. From what he says, it was very unusual for a unit to be left right on the front lines like that for so long, because it was such a maddening - literally - experience. He hardly ever talked about it, but we all knew he never really recovered from that experience. Decades later, he still woke up with night terrors from his dreams. Every now and then, as he got older, for some reason he would share a memory - seeing a friend split in two in front of his eyes. Spending every waking moment fearing for his life. I don't think it's possible to ever recover from such an experience. (which is why leaders who have actually been to war are usually more cautious about sending others to war)

When I think about life in general, and that means outside the bubble of the western nations, it sometimes seems to me that most people still have brutish and short lives. Maybe not most, but a heck of a lot still struggle just like our ancestors, except now the opposing tribes have guns instead of clubs. Sometimes life does seem unbearingly difficult and senseless.

I think there can be little doubt that this does have something to do with the origins of religion in general. We so desperately need to have hope and some sense of control. But some of us are just not born with the right "thing" - whatever it is, a god module or whatever - that enables us to suspend our skeptical disbelief to indulge like our comrades.

I visited the mother of my daughter's slain friend tonight. It is only her faith in God that is keeping her sane, her firm belief that her son is with the Lord, is happy, and she will see him one day.

I often wish I could still believe in that. The older I get and the more loss I experience, the nicer it would be to be able to have that hope. Knowing that hope gives so many comfort is one reason I keep my disbelief completely to myself in the "real world", and even on the internet world, I only share my disbelief on sites expressly designed for that purpose. I would never seek out believers to deconvert them. I only share my thoughts with people who come to sites where they know these sort of thoughts are being explored, and obviously want to explore them. Otherwise, I normally think hey, if it works for you and keeps you sane, go for it. Life is tough.

I do vent here about religion and its nonsensical ways, but I keep that venting in its place. I know religion has its use.

[_Mercury]

When I lost a close friend to cancer a couple of years ago, I heard believer after believer assert that God just wanted her home with him. How selfish of God, particularly since she had two elementary aged children and a husband who all needed her.

It really was beyond those believer's understanding to know the will of God, but perhaps they did not believe God wanted her to suffer with cancer. I also believe God does not want us to suffer. I feel empathy toward her Husband and Children. No doubt those others who knew her did as well, and their assertion was meant to be both a way to make sense of tragedy and as a balm for those grieving,

So why does god give us cancer? Because hes an asshole?