LDS and Earth Based Religions, just curious

[_Dulcinea]

Is science an appropriate tool to measure anything in the sphere of spiritualism?

I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make, and I take the blame for that, as I tend to be over symbolic at times. There are many things in the world that people don't understand, but it doesn't necessarily make them false. Just as you express a love of nature and describe what I would call communion with nature through your quote, there are many who would read Rousseau and have no idea of what he was trying to describe. Whether or not it can be "proved" by science or not is irrelevant. It is a completely different ballgame. It is more like a feeling.

I use ritual in meditation. I go outside and assume my favorite position. Yep, I'm such a slave to that ritual! :)

You hit the nail on the head - that is exactly what I am trying to describe. If I told you, however, that the position you sit in makes me very uncomfortable, does that make your position wrong or bad? Maybe for me (if I get a stiff back :D) but not for you. It is the same with ritual or magic or whatever.

Each person's meditation will produce different results, because we all associate the symbols with other different symbols, and attribute to them different meanings.

What symbols? I don't use any symbols when I meditate. You mean in Wicca?

I am not specifically referring to Wicca, although Wicca does use symbols, as I am sure you know. :)

Hmmm . . . How would I describe this? OK - Have you ever been shopping for something, and then see a particular item that would seem to be completely random (say, a strawberry shortcake toothbrush) and have a moment of intense recollection or reflection that kind of takes you somewhere else for a moment? Maybe you had a toothbrush like it as a kid, or had a t shirt with the same pattern, or a pair of shoes the same color, or maybe your grandmother gave it to you, or whatever . . . This object triggered thoughts of something else, right? That is the heart of the symbol principal. Meditation and spiritual moments need not be confined to one place or time, unless that is what a person is comfortable with. Wicca uses symbols, The Church uses symbols, and some of them are very similar.

Ritual is the same way. You get out of it what you put into it. It is very much like Classical Greek Drama in that way. However, if the symbols hold no meaning or association for a person (or if the person does not use the tool of thinking symbolically) then the experience would indeed be unsatisfying.

Well I put very little into ritual. I need to be outside in quiet when I meditate. Yet I get quite a bit out of it. I'll have to try some mood music and candles next time to amp the experience. ;P

Not following you on the Classical Greek Drama (Medea is one of my favs by the way). Well I have quite a few satisfying experiences in my life with no ritual involved at all. Or symbols?!

LOL Whatever works for you! We actually miss out on a lot of the Greek Drama - there was music and singing and dancing and all kinds of craziness involved that we can't duplicate today. The whole point of Greek Drama was the Catharsis experience. The most effective rituals (large scale rituals, like in Church or in Wicca, etc - at least that I have attended) tend to follow the same type of pattern.

Everything on earth is in a continual flux - nothing stays constant or fixed. Our attachments to external things pass and change as things do.

What a powerful quote!

Were you able to take anything useful from the experience?

[_barrelomonkeys]

Is science an appropriate tool to measure anything in the sphere of spiritualism?

I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make,

People say that to me a lot! Perhaps you missed the point I was trying to make? ;)

I agree that there are many discoveries not discovered! We don't know all we don't know. Agreed.

My point is that I don't necessarily believe that science can reasonably address people flitting about bonfires muttering incantations and whatnot as finding any "discovery" there. What do you think science (you brought up what we don't know and how we can discover new things) or any inquiry could ever come from a looksie at any spiritualism?

My point is; I disagree with you that anything will be further illuminated in the realm of the occult or anything of that nature. I could be wrong. Call me close minded and I'll gladly accept that label. :)

There are many things in the world that people don't understand, but it doesn't necessarily make them false. Just as you express a love of nature and describe what I would call communion with nature through your quote, there are many who would read Rousseau and have no idea of what he was trying to describe. Whether or not it can be "proved" by science or not is irrelevant. It is a completely different ballgame. It is more like a feeling.

Agreed! Although there are quite a few things that people do believe they understand that are false. For instance can you read my mind right now? There's lots of people that profess this ability. Or see into the future? Water dousing? Astral projection? Love potions if you snipped a bit of my hair.

I've known people that professed all of the above. I say that they were not capable of doing what they did above. I simply deny it! Why? Because it appears to be ludicrous on the face of it. If someone (with scientific inquiry) could prove me wrong so be it. I don't mind being wrong. But until I'm told I am I'll choose to look askew at those that profess these hookie pookie claims.

Reading literature and having an moment of insight, or having an experience in nature (feeling as one, part of the eternal), is a human condition that (the first) can easily be subjected to scientific tests. Can it not? If I read a bit of literature and take a test on it I've proven that I've either comprehended said literature or not. Pretty simple. Will different people interpret the same piece of literature through their own filter of understanding? Sure. But it's real is it not? Testable in some quality. We see it. All about us!

I can't say why I feel like I do in nature quite frankly. It's just calming. It's not testable. But it's mine. So naa naa naa naa naa. ;P

But I still want to point and giggle at others that do silly things. At least I don't wear silly clothes while I do it. Quite the styling naturist I am!

You hit the nail on the head - that is exactly what I am trying to describe. If I told you, however, that the position you sit in makes me very uncomfortable, does that make your position wrong or bad? Maybe for me (if I get a stiff back :D) but not for you. It is the same with ritual or magic or whatever.

Well my sitting in a position is quite different than watching people believe things that have no basis in reality. Don't you think? I'm not bothered by what they did really. Although it was a bit hokey. Their thoughts that they were doing something seemed a bit *off* to me. And of course when desired outcomes did not materialize I could sit back in smug satisfaction that I was brighter than them all. ;P

Hmmm . . . How would I describe this? OK - Have you ever been shopping for something, and then see a particular item that would seem to be completely random (say, a strawberry shortcake toothbrush) and have a moment of intense recollection or reflection that kind of takes you somewhere else for a moment? Maybe you had a toothbrush like it as a kid, or had a t shirt with the same pattern, or a pair of shoes the same color, or maybe your grandmother gave it to you, or whatever . . . This object triggered thoughts of something else, right? That is the heart of the symbol principal. Meditation and spiritual moments need not be confined to one place or time, unless that is what a person is comfortable with. Wicca uses symbols, The Church uses symbols, and some of them are very similar.

Okay, well I understand object relevance. I just didn't understand why I needed it for meditation?

LOL Whatever works for you! We actually miss out on a lot of the Greek Drama - there was music and singing and dancing and all kinds of craziness involved that we can't duplicate today. The whole point of Greek Drama was the Catharsis experience. The most effective rituals (large scale rituals, like in Church or in Wicca, etc - at least that I have attended) tend to follow the same type of pattern.

Right, I was pretty interested in this subject about 10 years ago. Devoured pretty much anything relating to Greek Tragedy and the historical aspects. I understand that in all societies we have norms and rituals. I get that. I just don't understand what your point is really?!? I would think, for myself, the individual "catharsis" is more appealing. But then again, I didn't grow up in a "Church" or any "society" for too long a period. So just call me anti-social and I'll go hang out in the woods. (with the sprites and nymphs ;P)

Everything on earth is in a continual flux - nothing stays constant or fixed. Our attachments to external things pass and change as things do.

Were you able to take anything useful from the experience?

Hmm...... that I'm a nutball? That I enjoy it? That I strive to reach that in the mundane life and can't recreate it? Yet again find it when I go back to nature.

It quite honestly makes me feel apart of something larger. Without end if that makes sense? Eternal?

THAT I AM A NUTBALL? That's about it.

[_Nephi]

I know that before I met and married Dulcinea, I was way into Buddhism. I still hold it close to my heart, though I do not meditate anymore. There came a point in my meditations where I could "see" the whole thought before I was able to put it into words. This is sort of a midway stopping point from normal reality and nirvana (called samadhi). Normally (even for me now a days) when I think of something, my brain formulates it into words for me to understand it. When I sit in silence and think of stuff, my head puts it into words.

In this case, however, I reached a point where the thought came together with no need to use words to describe it. The whole thing was in my consciousness all at once. Meditation helped this, and using something symbolic to concentrate upon while meditating is imperative. Meditation isn't about achieving an alpha state (no brain activity), according to Buddhism, it is about achieving a better understanding of oneness and how it all works. Concentrating upon individual things (your breath, or some important symbol to you) is required to achieve a state of samadhi.

[_Dulcinea]

My point is that I don't necessarily believe that science can reasonably address people flitting about bonfires muttering incantations and whatnot as finding any "discovery" there. What do you think science (you brought up what we don't know and how we can discover new things) or any inquiry could ever come from a looksie at any spiritualism?

I don't really think it matters. It would be like asking what the electromagnetic spectrum has to do with what my favorite colors are. For the most part it is irrelevant.

My point is; I disagree with you that anything will be further illuminated in the realm of the occult or anything of that nature. I could be wrong. Call me close minded and I'll gladly accept that label. :)

And honestly, for you, that may be the case, and that is ok. We all have different paths. I won't lose any respect for you because your brain operates a certain way if you allow me to operate the way I do. I promise I won't come to your house half nekked painted in woad unless you are having a halloween party. :D That doesn't make you close minded at all - It means that you are familiar with the way your spirituality operates. To use another analogy, some people prefer certain behavior in the boudoir, and for others, that behavior does nothing for them. It doesn't make the behavior bad, just ineffective for the person.

There are many things in the world that people don't understand, but it doesn't necessarily make them false. Just as you express a love of nature and describe what I would call communion with nature through your quote, there are many who would read Rousseau and have no idea of what he was trying to describe. Whether or not it can be "proved" by science or not is irrelevant. It is a completely different ballgame. It is more like a feeling.

Agreed! Although there are quite a few things that people do believe they understand that are false. For instance can you read my mind right now? There's lots of people that profess this ability. Or see into the future? Water dousing? Astral projection? Love potions if you snipped a bit of my hair.

LOL this makes me chuckle a bit, because it is my turn to be the nutball, but all I can say is for certainty that I don't know, so I can't say.

I've known people that professed all of the above. I say that they were not capable of doing what they did above. I simply deny it! Why? Because it appears to be ludicrous on the face of it. If someone (with scientific inquiry) could prove me wrong so be it. I don't mind being wrong. But until I'm told I am I'll choose to look askew at those that profess these hookie pookie claims.

You have every right not to believe in it - isn't that wonderful? However, they have every right to believe it as long as they don't hurt anyone. And as far as science is concerned, quantum mechanics says that all kinds of freaky things are possible on a sub atomic level, who knows what nature can and can't do? Aren't we part of nature?

Reading literature and having an moment of insight, or having an experience in nature (feeling as one, part of the eternal), is a human condition that (the first) can easily be subjected to scientific tests. Can it not?

I don't see science as being the end all be all to every unknown. I don't look to science for all of the answers I seek. I am capable of thinking for myself at times. Not to say that if my kid gets sick I wouldn't take the kid to the Dr, but I do believe that state of mind has a lot to do with health. Science is unable to objectively measure state of mind, yet can tell that people who laugh generally live longer lives. There are too many holes to depend only on science, IMHO. I claim the privilege of all researches in choosing what research I employ to back my arguments. :D

I can't say why I feel like I do in nature quite frankly. It's just calming. It's not testable. But it's mine. So naa naa naa naa naa. ;P

You are cute, Book of Mormon! Spiritual experiences are personal and belong to the individual. I wasn't raised in a church setting, and as a result I CRAVE spiritual communion with others, and yet am ridiculously picky about it. I feel that the essence of the Spirit is "that which is untestable". It just is.

But I still want to point and giggle at others that do silly things. At least I don't wear silly clothes while I do it. Quite the styling naturist I am!

WHAT??????? Silly clothes are what makes life worth while!!!! LOL

Well my sitting in a position is quite different than watching people believe things that have no basis in reality.

LOL Then don't watch. You have that freedom!

I'm not bothered by what they did really. Although it was a bit hokey.

So are weddings - have you ever seen the chicken dance? Yet, I wouldn't have gone without mine.

Their thoughts that they were doing something seemed a bit *off* to me. And of course when desired outcomes did not materialize I could sit back in smug satisfaction that I was brighter than them all. ;P

Smugness can be a very lonely emotion.

Hmmm . . . How would I describe this? OK - Have you ever been shopping for something, and then see a particular item that would seem to be completely random (say, a strawberry shortcake toothbrush) and have a moment of intense recollection or reflection that kind of takes you somewhere else for a moment? Maybe you had a toothbrush like it as a kid, or had a t shirt with the same pattern, or a pair of shoes the same color, or maybe your grandmother gave it to you, or whatever . . . This object triggered thoughts of something else, right? That is the heart of the symbol principal. Meditation and spiritual moments need not be confined to one place or time, unless that is what a person is comfortable with. Wicca uses symbols, The Church uses symbols, and some of them are very similar.

Okay, well I understand object relevance. I just didn't understand why I needed it for meditation?

You may not. There are others that find them useful.

LOL Whatever works for you! We actually miss out on a lot of the Greek Drama - there was music and singing and dancing and all kinds of craziness involved that we can't duplicate today. The whole point of Greek Drama was the Catharsis experience. The most effective rituals (large scale rituals, like in Church or in Wicca, etc - at least that I have attended) tend to follow the same type of pattern.

Right, I was pretty interested in this subject about 10 years ago. Devoured pretty much anything relating to Greek Tragedy and the historical aspects. I understand that in all societies we have norms and rituals. I get that. I just don't understand what your point is really?!?

LOL My point, is that I find the study of various symbols to be useful to my spiritual growth. I was asking a three fold question:

1) Has anyone here ever studied or worked with and Earth-based system of spirituality?

(and you answered that for me)

2) If so, did you gain anything POSITIVE from the experience?

(I think you answered that for me, but I need to read it again)

3) If 1 + 2, how does that interact (if at all) with the relationship that you have with the Church?

(And I may not have been perfectly clear on the last point, and for that, I apologize.)

I would think, for myself, the individual "catharsis" is more appealing. But then again, I didn't grow up in a "Church" or any "society" for too long a period. So just call me anti-social and I'll go hang out in the woods. (with the sprites and nymphs ;P)

Hey, whatever works for you. There are times I prefer to be alone and there are times I prefer to be in a group. I wouldn't say you are any more anti-social than I am.

Were you able to take anything useful from the experience?

That I enjoy it? That I strive to reach that in the mundane life and can't recreate it? Yet again find it when I go back to nature.

It quite honestly makes me feel apart of something larger. Without end if that makes sense? Eternal?

Cool. You answered my question. :D

[_Dulcinea]

I know that before I met and married Dulcinea, I was way into Buddhism. I still hold it close to my heart, though I do not meditate anymore. There came a point in my meditations where I could "see" the whole thought before I was able to put it into words. This is sort of a midway stopping point from normal reality and nirvana (called samadhi). Normally (even for me now a days) when I think of something, my brain formulates it into words for me to understand it. When I sit in silence and think of stuff, my head puts it into words.

In this case, however, I reached a point where the thought came together with no need to use words to describe it. The whole thing was in my consciousness all at once. Meditation helped this, and using something symbolic to concentrate upon while meditating is imperative. Meditation isn't about achieving an alpha state (no brain activity), according to Buddhism, it is about achieving a better understanding of oneness and how it all works. Concentrating upon individual things (your breath, or some important symbol to you) is required to achieve a state of samadhi.

I need to read about alpha states again . . . I remember that vaguely from psychology . . .

[_Nephi]

I need to read about alpha states again . . . I remember that vaguely from psychology . . .

Basically, alpha state is the brain being alive, but not doing anything.

I promise I won't come to your house half nekked painted in woad unless you are having a halloween party.

Actually, Halloween or not, Book of Mormon might actually like that, Dulci. :P

[_barrelomonkeys]

I know that before I met and married Dulcinea, I was way into Buddhism. I still hold it close to my heart, though I do not meditate anymore. There came a point in my meditations where I could "see" the whole thought before I was able to put it into words. This is sort of a midway stopping point from normal reality and nirvana (called samadhi). Normally (even for me now a days) when I think of something, my brain formulates it into words for me to understand it. When I sit in silence and think of stuff, my head puts it into words.

In this case, however, I reached a point where the thought came together with no need to use words to describe it. The whole thing was in my consciousness all at once. Meditation helped this, and using something symbolic to concentrate upon while meditating is imperative. Meditation isn't about achieving an alpha state (no brain activity), according to Buddhism, it is about achieving a better understanding of oneness and how it all works. Concentrating upon individual things (your breath, or some important symbol to you) is required to achieve a state of samadhi.

Hi Nephi, that sounds like an interesting state to be in.

I don't meditate to reach the alpha state. If I want that I do drugs, which I don't do anymore. Although I do enjoy that state quite a bit.

I do concentrate on my breathing. I think most people do, don't they?

[_Nephi]

I do concentrate on my breathing. I think most people do, don't they?

Yes, at least that is what is taught initially. However, that is not the only thing that is concentrated upon. For instance, I know that minimalist music (even just a constant tone) can be used, or a candle, or similar. Eventually, when you reach samadhi, you can concentrate upon ideals, like God, or Love, or how sexy I am, you know... stuff like that.

[_barrelomonkeys]

My point is that I don't necessarily believe that science can reasonably address people flitting about bonfires muttering incantations and whatnot as finding any "discovery" there. What do you think science (you brought up what we don't know and how we can discover new things) or any inquiry could ever come from a looksie at any spiritualism?

I don't really think it matters. It would be like asking what the electromagnetic spectrum has to do with what my favorite colors are. For the most part it is irrelevant.

I don't really see it that way at all. If someone makes claims (casual claims) they should be verified. No? I don't see it as irrelevant. If someone makes claims for the occult or anything else that can be measured then it should be measured to determined the validity of such claims. But in much of spirituality there is no need for science to intercede as there is nothing to be measured. Or maybe there is and I'm not aware of it. I know neuro scientists are exploring brain chemistry to understand these experiences. So who knows? I eagerly await all future discoveries.

I'm a bit confused. I thought you stated that (paraphrasing, because I'm too lazy to look) that there are things that are unknown to us at this time. I agree! But most things that are not known can be discovered at some point. Right? So why not look at these claims and verify them? Of course I've already conceded that many claims just can't be looked at from a scientific standpoint. So I would think.

My point is; I disagree with you that anything will be further illuminated in the realm of the occult or anything of that nature. I could be wrong. Call me close minded and I'll gladly accept that label. :)

And honestly, for you, that may be the case, and that is ok. We all have different paths. I won't lose any respect for you because your brain operates a certain way if you allow me to operate the way I do. I promise I won't come to your house half nekked painted in woad unless you are having a halloween party. :D That doesn't make you close minded at all - It means that you are familiar with the way your spirituality operates. To use another analogy, some people prefer certain behavior in the boudoir, and for others, that behavior does nothing for them. It doesn't make the behavior bad, just ineffective for the person.

Well I hope my brain operates pretty much the same way as everyone elses! But I'm just skeptical. I already explained how some of my experiences created a skeptic when I was young. Even before that, as a child, I was a skeptic. You say something is, okay.. then why? Just because you say so? I want to know. I wanted to understand. I don't just accept person's personal accounts as proof of anything.

There are many things in the world that people don't understand, but it doesn't necessarily make them false. Just as you express a love of nature and describe what I would call communion with nature through your quote, there are many who would read Rousseau and have no idea of what he was trying to describe. Whether or not it can be "proved" by science or not is irrelevant. It is a completely different ballgame. It is more like a feeling.

Agreed! Although there are quite a few things that people do believe they understand that are false. For instance can you read my mind right now? There's lots of people that profess this ability. Or see into the future? Water dousing? Astral projection? Love potions if you snipped a bit of my hair.

LOL this makes me chuckle a bit, because it is my turn to be the nutball, but all I can say is for certainty that I don't know, so I can't say.

Science has demonstrated that some claims are false. I DO know that water dousing has been put under scientific inquiry (as well as the other things I mentioned) and found to not be valid. This is fact. I don't close off all inquiries or claims. I want to see proof but yet don't go in usually with the belief that all claims are invalid. For instance there are plenty of things that science just is inconclusive about. I make no call either way. As I do not know. I DO know that hocus pocus astral projection and ESP claims have been found to be invalid through scientific inquiry.

I've known people that professed all of the above. I say that they were not capable of doing what they did above. I simply deny it! Why? Because it appears to be ludicrous on the face of it. If someone (with scientific inquiry) could prove me wrong so be it. I don't mind being wrong. But until I'm told I am I'll choose to look askew at those that profess these hookie pookie claims.

You have every right not to believe in it - isn't that wonderful? However, they have every right to believe it as long as they don't hurt anyone. And as far as science is concerned, quantum mechanics says that all kinds of freaky things are possible on a sub atomic level, who knows what nature can and can't do? Aren't we part of nature?

Yep, I don't care what people believe for the most part. As long as they don't hurt others. Yet I would prefer they use their reason to examine claims.

Yes we are a part of nature. What's your point? I'm a part of nature and say that water dousing is a claim that is not valid.

Reading literature and having an moment of insight, or having an experience in nature (feeling as one, part of the eternal), is a human condition that (the first) can easily be subjected to scientific tests. Can it not?

I don't see science as being the end all be all to every unknown. I don't look to science for all of the answers I seek. I am capable of thinking for myself at times. Not to say that if my kid gets sick I wouldn't take the kid to the Dr, but I do believe that state of mind has a lot to do with health. Science is unable to objectively measure state of mind, yet can tell that people who laugh generally live longer lives. There are too many holes to depend only on science, IMHO. I claim the privilege of all researches in choosing what research I employ to back my arguments. :D

Hmm.. well when I look to research I don't cherry pick. I tend to look for prevailing claims that have the most support from the scientific community backing them.

I can't say why I feel like I do in nature quite frankly. It's just calming. It's not testable. But it's mine. So naa naa naa naa naa. ;P

You are cute, Book of Mormon! Spiritual experiences are personal and belong to the individual. I wasn't raised in a church setting, and as a result I CRAVE spiritual communion with others, and yet am ridiculously picky about it. I feel that the essence of the Spirit is "that which is untestable". It just is.

I think the spiritual is in my brain quite frankly. I want to believe that. For the most part I do. Then I stumble across something that seems *off* to me and I look for valid explanations for such phenomenon. I don't blindly accept it as being whatever I think it may be. Of course, that's why I'm a skeptic. :)

Their thoughts that they were doing something seemed a bit *off* to me. And of course when desired outcomes did not materialize I could sit back in smug satisfaction that I was brighter than them all. ;P

Smugness can be a very lonely emotion.

Well that explains so much. Thanks! ;) I was just kidding by the way. What I was actually thinking was, " Does anyone recognize that this stuff seems silly? Of course at that point in my life I'd already rejected God. The occult (and watching the mumbo jumbo) was the final nail for me probably. I also wondered why people would forgo reason and just blindly accept that what they were doing would somehow have the desired effect. Again, a look for the causal component to claims and see if these claims stand up to scrutiny.

[_barrelomonkeys]

I need to read about alpha states again . . . I remember that vaguely from psychology . . .

Basically, alpha state is the brain being alive, but not doing anything.

I promise I won't come to your house half nekked painted in woad unless you are having a halloween party.

Actually, Halloween or not, Book of Mormon might actually like that, Dulci. :P

Well I won't turn you away at the door Dulcinea. But my neighbors might be a bit startled. :)