Sound and fury

[_Runtu]

From the outside, I watch the Evangelical/Mormon back and forth on MAD and elsewhere. I see them arguing about which version of Christ is correct (and which part of hell the believer in the "corrupt" version is headed for), the meaning of grace, the potential of humans for divinity (or not), and a host of things that apparently are incredibly important for these guys. "Where in the Bible do we learn that Jesus is Jehovah, but not Yaweh or Elohim?" an Evangelical demands today.

I sit back on the sidelines and I wonder why any of this matters. As a believer, I always thought the gospel was about doing and being, not about espousing some esoteric point of doctrine. Who cares whether Jesus is part of a Godhead or a Trinity? Who cares if Satan was Jesus' "brother"? Aren't there more important things to do, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned?

If there is a Satan (and I'm of the opinion there probably isn't), I'm sure he delights in distracting good people into these pointless and silly arguments.

[_Ren]

I sit back on the sidelines and I wonder why any of this matters.

Gotta be honest - whenever I see Mormons and EV's 'going at it' on such issues, I think of LOTR fans arguing about exactly what type of wizard Gandalf was, or Star Wars fans arguing about why Sith have to use red lightsabers...

[_Bond...James Bond]

I'm in the same spot. I don't understand why people have to argue about everything including whether God's eyes are blue or green and what God's favorite band is. I think these tiny insignificant details were thought up by religious folks to divide people when other real world topics (politics, economics, etc) wouldn't, in order to stir up trouble for the gain of the one's on top. This stuff today is the remnant of old religious arguments (in my opinion). I mean what other reason exists for arguing about the Nature of an All Powerful Being?

[_Scottie]

It's like in testimony meeting when people say, "The gospel is so simple!"

I sit back and think, "What in the hell are you talking about???" The details of what you need to do to become perfect and make it into the CK are so incredibly complex that it makes my head spin. How can you sit there and say how simple it is?

You always hear apologists say this too. When dealing with horses in the Book of Mormon or whatever critical argument is presented, they come back with, "How does this change my path to getting back to heaven??" Well, other than you might be in the wrong church, nothing, I suppose...

[_asbestosman]

It's like in testimony meeting when people say, "The gospel is so simple!"

I sit back and think, "What in the hell are you talking about???" The details of what you need to do to become perfect and make it into the CK are so incredibly complex that it makes my head spin. How can you sit there and say how simple it is?

Forget what you need to do to make it to the CK. If the gospel is simple, please explain the core: the atonement. How is it possible for someone to pay for the sins of another especially given that the Book of Mormon itself states that the just Nephite law did not permit someone to be punished in the place of another. What on earth does infinity buy you that allows this to happen? If it were like paying a debt (an analogy often used), then why can't we perform good deeds to make up for it? Why is it impossible to pay for your sins and return to God? Furthermore, how was it possible for Jesus to pay for our sins and yet return to God? Excruciating pain for 3 days is tough and I don't want to make light of it, but the ultimate payment / sacrifice would have been for Jesus to have suffered in hell for eternity just as we would have had He not atoned for us.

I'll even accept a non-simple answer to those questions. Simple indeed. Hah!

[_Always Thinking]

I sit back on the sidelines and I wonder why any of this matters.

Gotta be honest - whenever I see Mormons and EV's 'going at it' on such issues, I think of LOTR fans arguing about exactly what type of wizard Gandalf was, or Star Wars fans arguing about why Sith have to use red lightsabers...

Brilliant!

As a teen, I distinctly remember thinking about my religion and remarking to myself that it was like a really cool science fiction story. Only it was waaaay cooler, because, this time it was true!!

[_evolving]

I see the same strange things over on a yahoo group called Mormon+Mystic -- it is a group people trying to remove all of the smoke and mirrors from organized religion, and creating their own set in the process. there are a group of Saints and ex-saints, fundies,esoteric mystics, and masons.. watching all of them try and wrap their collective minds around the "you create your reality" philosophy/belief - the noise involved to teach each other the best way to attain "true enlightenment" is confusing and deafening.. I am not for or against the possibility, but I am comfortable just not knowing until I know, ya know

[_Sethbag]

Here's a quote from Bruce R. McConkie in the Seven Deadly Heresies speech.

Joseph Smith also taught in the Lectures on Faith "that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation." These he named as--

1. The idea that he actually exists;

2. A correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes; and

3. An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to the divine will.

According to Joseph Smith, and Bruce R. McConkie, a correct idea of the character, perfections, and attributes of God is necessary for salvation. It's not all just about being good. You have to know what God is so that you try to be like that yourself. This would help explain why there's so many arguments back and forth about things like the nature of God, Jesus, etc.

Personally, I'm with Abman on questioning the nature of the Atonement. Now that I'm out of the mindset that takes the Atonement for granted, I too am at a loss to explain how Jesus could be a scapegoat for us all. What is this "eternal Justice" thing which required Jesus to suffer great pain for a brief time in order to get some teenager out of going to Hell for jacking off? How are the atrocities of Adolf Hitler erased from the balance sheet of this eternal Justice because someone else, Jesus, was executed by the Romans in 33 AD in Jerusalem? It really doesn't make much sense. It simply doesn't make much sense that one person could endure suffering on behalf of someone else, and for Justice to accept this.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

I sit back on the sidelines and I wonder why any of this matters.

Gotta be honest - whenever I see Mormons and EV's 'going at it' on such issues, I think of LOTR fans arguing about exactly what type of wizard Gandalf was, or Star Wars fans arguing about why Sith have to use red lightsabers...

And when you think about it, the stories in the Bible were like the LOTR and Star Wars of their day. They entertained themselves by sitting around and telling stories. How do we know which stories in the Bible are actually historic records and which ones were popular tales? In 2000 years when archeologists dig up our civilization will they know the difference between the LOTR and The Iraq war, or will it all get mixed together into one "ancient history"?

[_Zoidberg]

I sit back on the sidelines and I wonder why any of this matters.

Gotta be honest - whenever I see Mormons and EV's 'going at it' on such issues, I think of LOTR fans arguing about exactly what type of wizard Gandalf was

Nah. The real question is whether or not Balrogs have wings. But we can now say almost conclusively that they do not, at least not functional wings. In fact, I've just read a book on the subject written by a zoologist with a doctorate degree from Cambridge who is now a senior editor for Nature. So LOTR issues are waaaaay more scientific than the Mormon/EV debate.