"I like to think that I've established my respect...

[_beastie]

Reverting briefly to so-called flap, is it possible this is a regional issue? I've never met anyone who used the term to mean "commonly called". I've only heard it used as a sneer.

[_Mister Scratch]

In other words, if someone is made happy and more loving by believing in sacramental transubstantiation (believing that the sacramental waffer literally turns into the body of Christ), and since it is of little or no harm to me and others, I think that even though I have a different point of view, such a belief is deserving of my tolerance and respect. Whereas, if Muslim extremists hijack several planes and fly them into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, I think that warrants significant intolerance, and perhaps even mockery and scorn.

So what, pray tell, is it about Calvinism that merits DCP's "mockery and scorn"?

I find this criteria and general social philosophy works well for all parties concerned.

Except, of course, when it pertains to your beloved apologists.

What do you think?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think, my dear friend, that you have a double standard.

[_skippy the dead]

Reverting briefly to so-called flap, is it possible this is a regional issue? I've never met anyone who used the term to mean "commonly called". I've only heard it used as a sneer.

Same. I've never heard used except to belittle whatever is being "so-called." If any one is claiming to use it as "commonly called", it would seem to be only because they were caught and are trying to rationalize the use.

Google seems to agree. If I google "define: so-called", it gives me:

Definitions of so-called on the Web:

* acting or being something in name only, but not in reality
encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861683576/nominal.html

* alleged(a): doubtful or suspect; "these so-called experts are no help"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Word usage changes over time. This is the current way that "so-called" is used. Any representation to the contrary is intellectually dishonest.

[Guest]

Reverting briefly to so-called flap, is it possible this is a regional issue? I've never met anyone who used the term to mean "commonly called". I've only heard it used as a sneer.

It generally is used in a sneering way, but that's not, I don't think, it's primary (or original) usage.

From Fowler's:

This much-used, often somewhat scornful, adjective frequently qualifies a word or phrase that is placed within quotations marks (e.g., the so-called 'generation gap'). Strictly speaking the quotation marks are not needed, but their use of omission is just a matter of taste.

Much as I'm tentative about correcting Fowler's, I side with Mary-Claire van Leunen (in A Handbook for Scholars) who opines that the twain should ne'er meet. So, "Mountain Meadows Massacre" or the so-called Mountain Meadows Massacre, but not the so-called "Mountain Meadows Massacre."

I have used this adjective to indicate that, while the descriptor, phrase, word, etc., I'm about to use has common consent in the broader discursive community, I might personally choose to term the issue otherwise: e.g., the so-called Problem of Evil. To my mind, highlighting a common term with quotation marks (read: 'scare quotes')--thus, the "Problem of Evil"--is more intrusively opinionated, from a readerly perspective, than modifying the term with so-called. (This is probably not the best example, as I personally let the Problem of Evil stand as is, but you get the idea.)

To be honest, whatever negative connotations so-called might borrow from its informal sneering applications, I don't think, on the face of it, one can assume anything sinister on DCP's part here. To my mind, it's a perfectly-acceptable adjective that highlights (for whatever writerly reason[s]) a common usage, but does not necessarily seek to overturno or overrule it.

In informal, primarily verbal, discourse, I agree that it is used derisively. But, not so in scholarly publications. I don't think, pace* Skippy, that it is intellectually dishonest to point that out.

That's my read of it, at any rate.

CKS

* This is another example of writerly etiquette's dictating word usage. Pace is widely accepted as a polite way of disagreeing with another's views (sort of like, "with due respect to [X]..."). The less polite way, of course, is contra, which just means, "You're wrong!"

[_Pokatator]

[...]
I believe it to be a silly, authoritarian, racist, sexist, homophobic, quasi-cult.

But the potlucks make it all worth it.

I hear the Lutherans have coffee and donuts. I might go back to church if the Mormons did that ...

Hey Lutherans, I call them non-union Catholics, have funeral potatoes, green jello, frog eye-salad, and everything else but they get to wash it down with really strong coffee. But even if the Mormons started serving coffee I'd rather be a non-union Catholic.

[_skippy the dead]

\
To be honest, whatever negative connotations so-called might borrow from its informal sneering applications, I don't think, on the face of it, one can assume anything sinister on DCP's part here. To my mind, it's a perfectly-acceptable adjective that highlights (for whatever writerly reason[s]) a common usage, but does not necessarily seek to overturn it.

I think that there are better ways to denote a common usage than "so-called", despite Fowler's. You could use "often referred to as [insert noun you're trying to avoid here]", or "known to many as [same thing]". But that's just me. I believe that if one is going to make the effort to publish on a subject, one should endeavor to be clear in one's writing and intentions.

[_skippy the dead]

In informal, primarily verbal, discourse, I agree that it is used derisively. But, not so in scholarly publications. I don't think, pace* Skippy, that it is intellectually dishonest to point that out.

That's my read of it, at any rate.

CKS

* This is another example of writerly etiquette's dictating word usage. Pace is widely accepted as a polite way of disagreeing with another's views (sort of like, "with due respect to [X]..."). The less polite way, of course, is contra, which just means, "You're wrong!"

D'oh - you edited while I was responding.

I wanted to say thanks for introducing me to a new word - I had not seen "pace" in such usage. Now I just need to decide if I want to pronounce it ˈpā-(ˌ)sē or ˈpä-(ˌ)chā. I think I like the way the latter sounds.

by the way - I have used "so-called" in scholarly publications, in order to sneer at a term or position. That's one reason why I believe clarity would require that that not be used if there is any doubt as to interpretation or intent.

[Guest]

*snipped my own post*]

ˈpä-(ˌ)chā.

That's close to the the way I've always heard it--I think! (I don't know your fancy-pants phonetic representational schema, but I've always heard PAW-chay.) That reminds me of the time in a college lit course that I stated that something was banal--and I pronounced it as if it rhymed with anal. My prof said, "You mean buh-NAHL." Me: "Um...yeth?"

by the way - I have used "so-called" in scholarly publications, in order to sneer at a term or position. That's one reason why I believe clarity would require that that not be used if there is any doubt as to interpretation or intent.

I think your alternatives are better, too. And I have no idea what DCP had in mind--the borrowed connotations are there, obviously.

I just know that I've used it (maybe once) in a paper and I don't think I meant anything derisive. But, as I can't remember the specific usage, I, indeed, may have been being snotty.

CKS

[_Pokatator]

So how many England Ice Teas did you drink the other day?

Mission accomplished?

Guy, you just had to mention my debauchery here on the board, didn't you!? ;)

They're Long Island Ice Teas, and I had three at the luncheon and five later at the hotel bar, along with a few other drinks, so yes, mission accomplished. Accomplished too well! I didn't have a hangover, though, thanks to my friend MishMagnet, who helped me to my hotel room when I couldn't get there on my own. She brought me food and made me drink plenty of water all night long so I felt just fine Saturday morning.

Thanks for asking. I'm glad my first experience getting plastered wasn't as bad as yours. :P (One mention of debauchery deserves another...)

KA

Guy, at least you can ask!

Me, I'm 5-11, getting older (disc shrinkage) 5-10.5 and 250#, work hard and mostly in shape for near 60 years and 3 LIITs at lunch would cause a great nap, then 5 more later????? I have been so pissed at little petite types that, I am sure are like you, say 5- 3 or 4 maybe and 113 to 121 #'s and can drink my butt under the table and into oblivion so I can't even ask like Guy was able to. I guess I need to hire someone to bring me food and make me drink plenty of water so my Saturdays are fine. Of course fine is an acronym, stands for F'd up, Insane, Neurotic and Emotional. I'm fine most of the time.

Anyway, I am hoping I can make the Xmo show next year.

[_moksha]

[...]
I believe it to be a silly, authoritarian, racist, sexist, homophobic, quasi-cult.

But the potlucks make it all worth it.

I hear the Lutherans have coffee and donuts. I might go back to church if the Mormons did that ...

The Unitarian Church I used to attend had wine and cheese. I suppose it was a perk of having a bigger budget.

To bad we Mormons do not have Decaf Mocha Lattes and baklava afterward. That would be a real treat.