KimberlyAnn wrote:The concept of enduring to the end is a rather grim outlook. Life isn't really so black and white, though, in my opinion.
There are times and difficulties in our lives we must endure, that is certain. But there are times of joy when live is a pleasure and it feels so good to be alive. For me, it's a matter of looking for the good and refusing to wallow in self-pity. There are people in the world who have little reason to feel joy or hope, but often they do feel joy and hope in spite of their circumstances. If they can find happiness and feel life isn't only to be "endured", then surely I can do the same. If I'm unhappy, it's my own fault.
KA
I remember holding my newborn child in my arms and thinking that he had no idea what was ahead of him. He had no clue how hard life would be.
I don't think that way anymore, thank heavens. Life is good. Usually.
barrelomonkeys wrote:I agree with everything you said Guy Sajer. But isn't part of the LDS belief that we endure things that we do NOT have to endure just for the sake of enduring them?
In other words we deny ourselves pleasure of some sort for the glory of God or something? This is what I thought of when I heard the "endure to the end" sentiment.
Enduring hardships that we can not control is quite different than enduring a miserable experience when we have other options.
I must have a very strange view of enduring to the end.
We all have things we endure, because we know it (whatever is torturing us at the time) will end. Like labor in childbirth... we endure it, because we know it will end. I don't see us as enduring life, when life is hard. That's just life. If I was in jail, that would be something to endure. If I was trapped in a bad marriage, that would be something to endure (and hope he either died or until I squirreled away enough money to pay a lawyer).
The point is, if a person is enduring, there's an end to look forward to. A bad life with no expectation of change isn't enduring; that's just life and you'd better stop enduring it and start finding a way to make it change.
barrelomonkeys wrote:I agree with everything you said Guy Sajer. But isn't part of the LDS belief that we endure things that we do NOT have to endure just for the sake of enduring them?
In other words we deny ourselves pleasure of some sort for the glory of God or something? This is what I thought of when I heard the "endure to the end" sentiment.
Enduring hardships that we can not control is quite different than enduring a miserable experience when we have other options.
The basic principle here is growth. Everyone in every society has pressure put on them to become more like the people in that society, even if it goes against the nature of the individual.
The LDS church is no different. The society of the LDS church asks the individual to better themselves by denying certain things that are natural to man. Sure, the standard is a bit higher, but there are religions out there that demand MUCH more than the LDS church does.
Enduring to the end is just a fact of life.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
KA, I rather like people that wallow for a bit. I think some of the most beauteous works of art (in all forms) have come from that bit of life where people feel such intense pain that they are able to transcend the norms of the everyday. I know I've had my share of wallowing lately and feel like it's been a big reboot of my system. Getting up from it certainly is a joy and yet I wouldn't take back a moan or a wail- it's all life.
I enjoy people that have had their shares of highs and lows - I find them most often rather fascinating people.
Harmony, I suppose I don't fully understand the LDS concept of enduring. There seem to be mixed messages in this thread. Is enduring something that we stick it out until the "end" or is it that we deny ourselves pleasure? I'm not really sure I'm following you. I understand there are trials in life that we must pull through and yet I thought the LDS concept of enduring to the end meant something else altogether.
Scottie, Right, well that's what I thought 'enduring to the end' meant to LDS and the Church. Although I just don't really see the point of it really. I recognize that within all societies there are norms and taboos. And yet denying ourselves the taboos for no other reason than it is a taboo just doesn't sit well with me. Why deny ourselves these things? If there is some thrill or heightened experience of living that we can take away from it why not do it? Just because society (church- whatever) says we must not?
Enduring to the end is just a fact of life? I don't really see it that way. With the way you frame the concept is that we can not/should not do certain things because society says we shouldn't. That's not a fact of life... that's others forcing their morality upon us. Surely there is always moderation. Yet within the LDS Church things are taboo such as masturbation... why should ANY person have to endure to the end of that? It just seems ludicrous.
And you can go on up the totem pole ;p from there in terms of denying ourselves pleasures just because there's been some dictate that we should do so.
Scottie wrote: The basic principle here is growth. Everyone in every society has pressure put on them to become more like the people in that society, even if it goes against the nature of the individual.
I see it the exact opposite of that! Growth to become something you are not? To nestle away your desires and passions because society says that don't fit into the realm of acceptablity? That seems to be the extreme opposite of growth.
Scottie wrote: The basic principle here is growth. Everyone in every society has pressure put on them to become more like the people in that society, even if it goes against the nature of the individual.
I see it the exact opposite of that! Growth to become something you are not? To nestle away your desires and passions because society says that don't fit into the realm of acceptablity? That seems to be the extreme opposite of growth.
Yes, to me the main practical effect of Mormonism is to squeeze people into a template that is supposedly going to bring you happiness and success in life. Other than the church not being true, the biggest problem is that the template doesn't work very well for most people. But yes, that's the idea of progression in Mormonism: growth to become something you are not. Add to that the guilt for it not working, and you get the gist of Mormonism.
Scottie wrote: The basic principle here is growth. Everyone in every society has pressure put on them to become more like the people in that society, even if it goes against the nature of the individual.
I see it the exact opposite of that! Growth to become something you are not? To nestle away your desires and passions because society says that don't fit into the realm of acceptablity? That seems to be the extreme opposite of growth.
Yes, to me the main practical effect of Mormonism is to squeeze people into a template that is supposedly going to bring you happiness and success in life. Other than the church not being true, the biggest problem is that the template doesn't work very well for most people. But yes, that's the idea of progression in Mormonism: growth to become something you are not. Add to that the guilt for it not working, and you get the gist of Mormonism.
Wow, that sounded cynical.
Cynical is good. ;)
Watch it runtu or you'll be dragged into the Ayn Rand cult with me. ;P
Yah, I just don't see forcing morality down others throat as a growth process in the least. Embracing life in all of its various forms happens just one time around. Why deny yourself the pleasures? Certainly there are ways to go about life while enjoying the joys without causing harm to others or self. Seems to me that much of the 'rules' are merely meant to shield us from the pleasures of life in an effort to make us appear to be strong as we resist temptation.
I rather like being tempted and giving into it. You say I can't - I'm gonna give it a try atleast once!
So what I'm hearing here is that we should all just turn into beasts. That we should eat and drink anything we want because it feels good, that we should have sex with anyone and everyone because it feels good, that we should take what we want because it feels good...consequences be damned.
All of these things go against the natural man. Yet, we all strive every day to NOT do these things because, in the end, we will be better people. And, we will be happier in the long run.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
Scottie wrote:So what I'm hearing here is that we should all just turn into beasts. That we should eat and drink anything we want because it feels good, that we should have sex with anyone and everyone because it feels good, that we should take what we want because it feels good...consequences be damned.
All of these things go against the natural man. Yet, we all strive every day to NOT do these things because, in the end, we will be better people. And, we will be happier in the long run.
I've always done anyone I chose to whenever I wanted to. I fornicated because it felt good. I did everything I chose to because it felt good.
I still have a beautiful home, beautiful children, an education, a laptop (lucky ya'll!), and the comforts of the good life. I also look back and know I jumped into every car, never missed a chance, never regretted NOT doing something... My regrets come from doing things I thought society dictated to fit a mold which I just do not fit!
I'll take beast if you wanna label it that. I think it's in our nature to enjoy life. Doesn't mean we have to go nuts. Or hell maybe just for a bit. ;P