Transgender people in the Church

[_asbestosman]

I'm going to disagree with you for the sake of argument, ab man. Perhaps God does know which gender the doctor or whoever will choose. What does that say about other types of developmental abnormalities? Fetus in fetu, conjoined twins, Down syndrome, spina bifida all come to mind. The case of ambiguous genitalia is no different than those.

In the case of Fetus in fetu or parasitic twin, what spirit might you think God would send into the body of the parasitic twin?

I actually mentioned conjoined twins and fetus in feu in my previous post. There is no easy answer for those cases even if we want to correlate one spirit to one brain. Suddenly we have a problem with the concept of souls altogether rather than one of a soul's gender. Again I have faith that God can and will sort it out and that such does not really disprove the concept of a soul.

[_asbestosman]

All this body vs spirit stuff reminded me of a song from my childhood. It starts at about 4 min in.
Subterfugious

[_Zoidberg]

Actually I think it is a red-herring. If we continue down this path, we may as well use identical twins, siamese twins, chimeras, and twins-growing as tumors to try proving that the concept of a soul / spirit is nonsensical. You can thank The Dude for a book he recommended, Challenging Nature, which more or less made that argument.

You see, I'm actually not interested in debating things like that at all, although I'm sure the book recommended by The Dude is good. If there are, in fact, spirits, I would say that the LDS theological point of view on this one would be something like this: separate brain in a human body capable of living independently of a host at some point in time - separate spirit. I imagine you probably subscribe to the same position. If not, feel free to indicate otherwise. The Church has also pretty much admitted that there is no official position on when the spirit enters the body and that everything the leaders have said so far is speculation and personal opinion. And I'm fine with that, believe it or not. But I think this issue of fetus in fetu etc. you are trying to raise is the real red herring here.

If you fail to understand why intersex people are more relevant to the discussion of transgender people in the Church than siamese twins, I honestly don't know what to say.

So I could be wrong about doctors. That does not surprise me. I fail to see why God couldn't set things right for the people who fall under that category. Even if millions, nay billions of people fall into that category it does not matter. For most of us gender is pretty clear.

You are absolutely right. That includes transgender people. Their gender is pretty clear to them, which is why they choose to live differently than most people whose genitals resembled theirs at birth. I fail to see why God couldn't set things right for the people who fall under that category by giving them knowledge of their true gender so that they could spend their mortal probation preparing to fulfill their proper role instead of living their whole life with a mistaken identity only to find out after death that it has all been a lie. Now tell me why the Church opines differently.

To muck with that seems to be anything but faith in God's plan for us.

Could you please be more specific? What part of the plan are you talking about, exactly?

By the way, I think the church would sooner disavow claims to the priesthood and historicity of the Book of Mormon than to perform homosexual temple marriages. Note I said think, not hope.

I respectfully disagree, but I guess we'll just have to see about that.

[_asbestosman]

includes transgender people. Their gender is pretty clear to them, which is why they choose to live differently than most people whose genitals resembled theirs at birth. I fail to see why God couldn't set things right for the people who fall under that category by giving them knowledge of their true gender so that they could spend their mortal probation preparing to fulfill their proper role instead of living their whole life with a mistaken identity only to find out after death that it has all been a lie.

And some people think that they are The Messiah, or Elvis Pressley. Why doesn't God set everyone's misconceptions straight? That I don't know.

[_asbestosman]

Could you please be more specific? What part of the plan are you talking about, exactly?

Eternal marriage.

[_asbestosman]

If you fail to understand why intersex people are more relevant to the discussion of transgender people in the Church than siamese twins, I honestly don't know what to say.

In fact chimeras have a direct implication on the whole transgender thing. It's just that the larger class of other biological anomalies shows that the questions biology raises are not at all limited to gender.

Besides, I thought your discussion wasn't so much about intersexed people as it was the church's concept of a spirit's gender. Do you really think that church would believe that going under the knife changes the spirit too? Siamese twins bring similar questions to the table.

Anyhow, if there's no soul, then I guess it would really be best for everyone to stay away from the church altogether. If one has a testimony of it though, then one ought to live by the precepts even if it means giving up some things.

[_Jersey Girl]

ab man

Do you really think that church would believe that going under the knife changes the spirit too?

Then what is the problem with transgendered folks choosing surgery as an option?

[_asbestosman]

Do you really think that church would believe that going under the knife changes the spirit too?

Then what is the problem with transgendered folks choosing surgery as an option?

Not sure I understand your question. Anyhow, I think there is a difference in intent when one gives it one's best shot in an ambiguous case and when one is unsatisfied with gender that isn't so ambiguous.


Of course I realize the reply that will likely come yet again and I think everyone knows what my counter-reply will be.

[Guest]

And some people think that they are The Messiah, or Elvis Pressley. Why doesn't God set everyone's misconceptions straight? That I don't know.

You see, there are independent, objective and generally agreed upon standards for determining whether or not someone is Elvis Presley; the Messiah might be a little trickier, but Messiah standards are usually consistent within a specific religious tradition. Some people think Jesus was a mad man, but you don't, do you? I'm sure there are at least some minimal requirements for passing the Messiah test that would weed out 99.9% of the candidates. Like performing miracles.

The Church's treatment of the gender issue is not consistent, however.

Here's a simple test: which one common characteristic do all men share, but women don't possess (other than "male spirit")? I'll wait patiently until you answer, which will probably be never if you are as intelligent as I think you are.

And we are back to eternal marriage. Why are some of the people who chromosomally, phenotypically or otherwise deviate from "the norm" for the gender with which they identify, and have received surgery to "normalize" their genitalia, allowed to marry in the temple for eternity while the others aren't?

[_Zoidberg]

Anyhow, I think there is a difference in intent when one gives it one's best shot in an ambiguous case and when one is unsatisfied with gender that isn't so ambiguous.

You are disappointing me, asbestosman. I'll just wait for you to come up with a single characteristic, other than male spirit, that all men share, but women don't possess, and vice versa. This is going to be entertaining.