Sethbag wrote:I believe that all the troublesome topics do affect one's salvation. Or, rather, they affect the judgment of the credibility we assign to those claiming to have the power and authority from God to dictate to us the terms of our salvation, by representing God for us on earth in matters of belief, obedience, etc.
If the prophets, seers, and revelators have no credibility then you should not believe them.
That's how I ended up where I am. I suppose one can still consider the Church true in terms of the ordinances only, as someone suggested to me on MAD, but I see little to no point in doing that because I don't think God's a bureaucrat and such a position would be irrational, to say the least; if the prophets can't tell the difference between revelation from God and their own opinion, who's to say they are right about the Church holding a monopoly on the ordinances? It works for some people, though.
Of course, we're all irrational, just in different ways.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
Oh! I know! I know how we can tell who's spirit is male and who's is female!!
How about we ask the person??
God's time is 1000 years per day. God is assigning billions of spirits to billions of bodies per day. Is there not an allowance for processing error? Oh, that spirit was supposed to go here, I kind of switched them when I was dealing with something really important - like a poor woman in Darfur being gang raped, mutilated and killed while she was getting water.
I suppose I look at it like - yeah, it's a strange notion. I don't know anyone personally that has made a gender transition. However - whom does it harm? Where is the harm in it? And why is God so concerned about this when there is some really sick sh*t going on in the world?
MOST people in the world don't have the benefit of eternal marriage. Most people on this board don't have the benefit of eternal marriage. An extremely small percentage of the world is going to have it and the rest of us won't (if it exists of course.) So honestly, why the emphasis here particularly when there are so many more issues that are more serious? You know - like Global Warming. Why can't you be rejected for baptism until you stop being a high-impact consumer?
This thread has been really interesting for me to read, though I haven't participated in it yet.
"Gender" was, if not the biggest, the most personal problem I had with "the church." Zoidberg's OP cast the problem in terms of a strict quasi-biological focus which serves to focus the problem quite acutely. For me, though, the broader implications of the limited and repressive concept of gender [NB, I suppose I would probably argue that the notion of gender itself is limited and repressive] that the LDS church is wedded to invalidated the rest of its claims at the ground level.
I do know a lot of transgendered people, by the way. Some identify with the term, some don't, some have had various kinds of "gender reassignment" surgery and some haven't. Interestingly, I know more f to m's than m to f's: in terms of surgery the former is more complicated than the latter.
My friendships with transsexual people of all kinds, I suppose even just the existence of such people who I knew about long before I met any (specifically the Warhol "superstar" Candy Darling) taught me valuable lessons about gender-as-performance that saved my sanity as a young girl growing up under Mormon rule in SLC. I'm heterosexual and pretty feminine-appearing, though not a real girly-girl. Nevertheless, I did really wonder about myself while I was growing up since I lacked the most fundamental of the "inherent" 'inborn" traits that are read as markers of the "female" by the brethern and sistern. While I always wanted "to know," I never, ever wanted to be a mother.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Zoidberg wrote:You keep talking about obedience. If GBH told you your priesthood has been revoked and you now have to wear a skirt to Church, would you obey?
What's wrong with a skirt? I don't think less of the Scottish for their kilts. Plenty manly to me.
Zoidberg wrote:If people with AIS can somehow receive revelation from God or whatever you want to call it what gender to identify with, why is similar experience in people with GID discounted?
Probably for similar reasons that those who think they are Elvis reincarnated are discounted.
Zoidberg wrote:What do doctors and diseases have to do with anything? We are not talking about individual mistakes, we are talking about the criteria that make one either a man or a woman. And these criteria are extremely tricky and elusive, and arbitrary, which you are unwilling to admit for reasons I do not understand.
I'm not talking about individual doctors but of the medical tests in a profession. The criteria for some diseases can be extremely tricky and elusive, and even arbitrary. You are unwilling to see that for reasons I can suspect.
Let us be fair, The definition of human is even somewhat elusive and arbitrary. We have put human DNA in pigs and even grown human neurons in mice (chimeras). None of that means we need to give animals the same rights as humans.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
Blixa wrote:This thread has been really interesting for me to read, though I haven't participated in it yet.
"Gender" was, if not the biggest, the most personal problem I had with "the church." Zoidberg's OP cast the problem in terms of a strict quasi-biological focus which serves to focus the problem quite acutely. For me, though, the broader implications of the limited and repressive concept of gender [NB, I suppose I would probably argue that the notion of gender itself is limited and repressive] that the LDS church is wedded to invalidated the rest of its claims at the ground level.
I do know a lot of transgendered people, by the way. Some identify with the term, some don't, some have had various kinds of "gender reassignment" surgery and some haven't. Interestingly, I know more f to m's than m to f's: in terms of surgery the former is more complicated than the latter.
My friendships with transsexual people of all kinds, I suppose even just the existence of such people who I knew about long before I met any (specifically the Warhol "superstar" Candy Darling) taught me valuable lessons about gender-as-performance that saved my sanity as a young girl growing up under Mormon rule in SLC. I'm heterosexual and pretty feminine-appearing, though not a real girly-girl. Nevertheless, I did really wonder about myself while I was growing up since I lacked the most fundamental of the "inherent" 'inborn" traits that are read as markers of the "female" by the brethern and sistern. While I always wanted "to know," I never, ever wanted to be a mother.
"Gender" in many ways is a social construct. One's genitalia need not determine how one acts or thinks or lives. It's interesting that the Proclamation on the Family makes these social constructs retroactive to the premortal existence. Not only that, but the "eternal" gender traits are rather late developments in Western culture. I guess that means God had quite a bit of foreknowledge to not only ensure that human beings evolved into a species compatible enough with Him to be His literal offspring, but also to develop the gender roles that He put in place before the world began.
Gender roles? Yes, I think there is plenty of room for change in the church there. I fully expect it to happen. That's still a long shot from homosexual temple marriage. I even suspect that women in the priesthood is much more likely than homosexual marriage.
I'll agree with Sethbag that if you feel the prophets have no credibility you shouldn't believe them. I just happen to think the ambiguous gender issue has no bearing on LDS doctrine. I have no doubt that if those who have it would humbly ask for guidance from the prophets, that they would provide it.
Gender Identity Disorder seems rather similar to people who have other identity disorders (they they are Elvis or whatever). The only significance about gender identity is that there is no reson to publicly treat someone differently based on gender wheras Elvis would likely need to be treated differently for security or whatnot. In private it makes biological sense to make a distinction because, well, that's just human nature. People with similar reproductive equipment to me just don't turn me on.
When it comes to religion, there is no need for any justifications to any rules whatsoever. If God says no shellfish, then don't eat shellfish. If He says stay away from a menstrating woman, then do it. If He says women should hold the priesthood and men should be barefoot and pregnant (maybe like seahorses), then that should be the case for religion. If you don't like the rules or find them unbelievable, then don't go for that religion.
I wonder if a more reliable indicator of gender might be in our brains. Womens brains have more connections in the corpus callosum.
I also wonder whether Gender Identity Disorder isn't more based on how people treat others based on gender. I suspect if there are more f2m transformations that that may be why. I am somewhat curious as to what factors have been correlated with GID. DNA? Hormones while in the womb? The culture / circumstances one grows up in?
I find it interesting that homosexuals generally do not have GID. Gays identify themselves as men, not women trapped in mens bodies.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
MishMagnet wrote:God's time is 1000 years per day. God is assigning billions of spirits to billions of bodies per day. Is there not an allowance for processing error?
We're talking about God. Do you think He's going to assign someone to the wrong kingdom due to processing error?
Maybe I'm a squirrel trapped in a man's body.
Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man, or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
I wasn't aware squirrels, bowling balls and sashimi had spirits. Is that doctrinal?
I'm kidding you of course.
Seriously, God can prepare a man to translate an acient document by having him hunt for buried treasure with a seerstone in the bottom of a hat. That's totally reasonable. Also totally reasonable for God to have his reasons for a man to sleep with 30+ women without his wife's consent. Said ancient record making it's way from Guatamala to upstate New York is reasonable. God putting a man's spirit in a female body is totally unreasonable.
MishMagnet wrote:I wasn't aware squirrels, bowling balls and sashimi had spirits. Is that doctrinal?
Only if you've played the video game called Chrono Trigger.
Seriously, God can prepare a man to translate an acient document by having him hunt for buried treasure with a seerstone in the bottom of a hat. That's totally reasonable. Also totally reasonable for God to have his reasons for a man to sleep with 30+ women without his wife's consent. Said ancient record making it's way from Guatamala to upstate New York is reasonable. God putting a man's spirit in a female body is totally unreasonable.
I'm glad we cleared that up.
God making mistakes is unreasonable.
Glad to be of service.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO