charity wrote: Seems I have been moved up a little in the apologetics ranks and am getting more involved with real apologetics. I consider message boards sort of practice games. And this means no disrespect.
Congratulations! But I'm also not sure exactly what that means. Are you publishing somewhere online or offline?
I am more of a behind the scenes person. I have been doing some editing of apologetics material. You won't see my byline.
charity wrote: But what I see on message boards is two sides. No one changes jerseys at half time and joins the other team.
Well, that's not exactly true. We have at least a couple of posters who once posted on the Mormon Apologists team. Now they don't. Same style, same logic, different conclusions.
From what I hear about at least one, it wasn't a message board which changed his mind.
I sense the gossip-mongering work of Dr. Peterson here. Referring to Kevin Graham, no doubt. I wonder what ulterior motive charity is referring to. A secret homosexual relationship with Robert Ritner, perhaps?
charity wrote: No one changes jerseys at half time and joins the other team.
Thanks to all of you for the welcome.
Wonderful to have you here. No need to change jerseys. Whether you are a wide receiver or a tight end, you can go out for a Hail Mary pass dressed just as you are. Spike heels only serve to help aerate the grass.
charity wrote: But what I see on message boards is two sides. No one changes jerseys at half time and joins the other team.
Well, that's not exactly true. We have at least a couple of posters who once posted on the Mormon Apologists team. Now they don't. Same style, same logic, different conclusions.
From what I hear about at least one, it wasn't a message board which changed his mind.
I sense the gossip-mongering work of Dr. Peterson here. Referring to Kevin Graham, no doubt. I wonder what ulterior motive charity is referring to. A secret homosexual relationship with Robert Ritner, perhaps?
He is? They are?
Shame on you, ck. I heard no such thing form DCP or anyone else. The only rumor I heard was that someone got his head handed to him in a basket when he was caught unprepared, got his pride whomped, adn then wanted to blame his bruised ego on the Church, the general authorities, and every TBM who wouldn't lick his wounds to make him feel better.
charity wrote:Shame on you, ck. I heard no such thing form DCP or anyone else. The only rumor I heard was that someone got his head handed to him in a basket when he was caught unprepared, got his pride whomped, and then wanted to blame his bruised ego on the Church, the general authorities, and every TBM who wouldn't lick his wounds to make him feel better.
Now, are you starting another rumor?
Why stop now? Why not just provide the details? Not that they'll be believable, but...
Yeah, you charity-defenders are right. Charity is really "nice" and here we have exhibit A on that. Nice. Yeah.
It is funny how these nimrods choose to interpret things.
What did it for me was the Book of Abraham, sure.
Will Schryver is responsible for creating this myth that Metcalfe killed my pride so I had no choice but to blame it on the Church, and I have seen a few others propagate this nonsense. Naturally they believe this because it helps them deal with the fact that an apologist left. If I left because of pride issues, well then that explains everything right? But the fact is I left because the Book of Abraham is indefensible and I felt myself bending over backwards left and right trying to defend it while relaying apologetic material fed to me from Gee and the gang.
Yes, I presented this stuff at ZLMB in a discussion with Metcalfe and I felt like he beat me in the debate.
So what?
How is this supposed to be a knock against me? I realized my position was entirely untenable. This led to further mirror reflection and I eventually realized the Book of Abraham is a product of Joseph Smith, not God.
It would seem that my problem wasn’t pride at all. If it were, then I would have maintained my stubborn attitude and remained an apologist, continuing in a life of denial about how the Book of Abraham can be saved by Nibley and Gee.
“head handed to him in a basket”?
“when he was caught unprepared”?
Jesus. I was caught unprepared? No, that is not nearly the full story. I was fully prepared with everything other apologists had to load in my arsenal. They were all feeding me information via email, but none of them wanted to take the public stand and take on Metcalfe. The fact is, there was no adequate preparation, which is why Gee and the gang never tackle Metcalfe head-on. They argue using me as their proxy, that way I get to look foolish publicly and not them.
I had the integrity to admit the obvious, whereas they do not. I'm not the one with pride issues here.
Metcalfe shot everything down left after right. I eventually admitted his was the better argument. Later on he was critiquing an article I wrote for FAIR and he pointed out some problems that I could not resolve. So I asked FAIR to remove the article. Several years later, the article still remained.
So who has the pride issue, me or FAIR?
If it can be demonstrated that I am wrong, I will remove or correct the error. FAIR won’t.
“then wanted to blame his bruised ego on the Church, the general authorities, and every TBM who wouldn't lick his wounds to make him feel better.”
Charity, do you actually make an effort to make sure you never know what the hell you’re talking about?
You guys speak of this event like it is fresh in your minds when only a few (elite) apologists were involved in this discussion years ago, including Gee. I doubt you have even checked the source to see what actually took place. I brought this incident up to Will Schryver a year ago to make a point, and then he decided to use it to his advantage by recreating the story in the most dramatic, and apologetically appealing fashion. It is the same slime campaign used by peple like David Bokovoy who ran over to MAD back in April to start a thread about the “real reasons” people like me become “turncoats.” His reasoning was that I needed the attention. Yea, like the attention I get now can ever compare to the attention I got as an apologist.
Anyway, how does it feel to be a tool in Schryver’s rumor-mongering campaign?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
charity wrote:Shame on you, ck. I heard no such thing form DCP or anyone else. The only rumor I heard was that someone got his head handed to him in a basket when he was caught unprepared, got his pride whomped, and then wanted to blame his bruised ego on the Church, the general authorities, and every TBM who wouldn't lick his wounds to make him feel better.
Now, are you starting another rumor?
Why stop now? Why not just provide the details? Not that they'll be believable, but...
Yeah, you charity-defenders are right. Charity is really "nice" and here we have exhibit A on that. Nice. Yeah.
Hi, Trevor. What is your complaint, exactly?
I was responding to the claim that a message board changed someone's religious orientation. I said that what I heard said that wasn't true in one case. I named no names. Then ck comes in with some inflammatory information attached to real names. I denied stating that. Gave the reason I heard. Again no names. Now, if someone you know fits that description, I suppose it your right to jump to conclusions.
What isn't nice? My innocuous statements, or other people's conclusions and flaming remarks about people by name?
You want details? How about asking for them in order. The first post that said people changed sides because of message board activity. Let's hear names and details from that post.
Charity, thank God for this forum and thank you for showing up.
Because I have wanted to say something I could never say over at MAD.
You're an idiot.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
dartagnan wrote:Charity, thank God for this forum and thank you for showing up.
Because I have wanted to say something I could never say over at MAD.
You're an idiot.
Thanks, Kevin.
So you saw yourself in what I posted? I didn't bring your name up in the discussion at all. But I must have hit a nerve. Is everybody here as touchy as this?
So you saw yourself in what I posted? I didn't bring your name up in the discussion at all. But I must have hit a nerve. Is everybody here as touchy as this?
I figured you were talking about Kevin, as there are only a couple of us who once considered ourselves apologists. Your description didn't apply to me, so I thought you meant Kevin. Did you have someone else in mind?