Thread At MA&D About Doubting Members and Fair/MA&D

[_Some Schmo]

This is what has always been my beef with FAIR/MAD.

When I was a Mod at FAIR, I tried to address this. It didn't get very far.

I still don't really understand this mentality, either, Scottie.

Maybe Charity can shed some light on this, since she is a new apologist to our board.

If you are an apologist, you are sharing your gift, your intense study and understanding of the gospel with others who are less knowledgeable. If that person is a troll, does that fact diminish your answer to their question in any way?

I don't see how that makes the apologist look foolish, particularly if the apologist is giving a sound argument in response.

Looking back, I think my stint as an apologist was aimed more at reinforcing to myself that I was RIGHT. Maybe I'm projecting, but I see that same motivation in a lot of apologists. When your motivation is being right, sincere doubters present a problem, so most people view them as threats, the enemy, and treat them accordingly.

Well, not only that, but think about how an apologist must regard him/herself: an authority. And the Mormons have such a f***ed view of authority figures (can never lead you astray) that it's truly become against their religion to be wrong about anything.

[_The Nehor]

Well, not only that, but think about how an apologist must regard him/herself: an authority. And the Mormons have such a f***ed view of authority figures (can never lead you astray) that it's truly become against their religion to be wrong about anything.

I blame the Princess Bride Movie.

"Unless I am wrong....and I am never wrong."

[_Scottie]

I'm astonished at just how fragile the ego's of the apologists at MAD. . . But their ego's can't handle that they might be duped.

Scottie, please read this post.

My apologies, grammar nazi. I beg you, please don't make me walk back to my quarters while shooting at me from high atop your tower. :)

[_Yoda]

Well, not only that, but think about how an apologist must regard him/herself: an authority. And the Mormons have such a f***ed view of authority figures (can never lead you astray) that it's truly become against their religion to be wrong about anything.

I blame the Princess Bride Movie.

"Unless I am wrong....and I am never wrong."

I LOVE the "Princess Bride" movie!

(Note to self...much watch this again tonight!)

[_mms]

I knew it would happen eventually. I have been named in the thread at MA&D, as follows:

"Spoilers and wreckers such as mms, 4truth, and the rest of that ilk should be chased out with a broom."--Selek

It is utterly amazing to me that Selek and others still think I am a "troll." I have posted more than 330 times at MA&D, have had endless opportunities to attack the church, to encourage a doubter to doubt, etc. and have been entirely consistent in not taking such opportunities. My criticisms have regarded and will regard the Church's way of dealing with its history and the apologists way of dealing with those who question.

I must say, Selek, Pahoran, Juliann, etc. have zero ability to discern. I know this because I know I am being entirely truthful (taught Sunday School again yesterday; had another discussion with my wife about how I am trying to deal with my concerns) and I have in no way concluded where I will end up. So, this latest claim that I am a "spoiler[] and wrecker[]" only continues to bring home the point that those who consider themselves such great defenders of the faith have not the gift of discernment--I am trying not to let this become simply a further basis for doubt.

Very early in the attacks against me at MA&D, I requested that Selek and Pahoran pray about whether I was a troll or an honest seeker and that I was entirely confident in what their answer would be if they were sincere. I posited that because of my experience in the church; because of those who would be influenced based on my decision-making; and because of the effect the attacks of the apologists on my feelings about the church, that God would answer their prayers and let them know that I was not a troll. This, I thought, would lead them to either ignore or assist me, but reduce their attacks and the negative feelings I was having about the church based on the conduct of its "defenders" (which I admit was an irrational response, but it was happening nonetheless).

They never responded that they would do so, but continued the attacks. It seems if it was worth their time to attack me, it would have been worth their time to inquire of the Lord re whether I was a doubting High Priest or a troll. If they did pray about it (they may have) and received the answer that I am a troll, then they should be questioning their own abilities to obtain answers to prayers. I was not mocking prayer in the slightest--I meant every word I said and did not think it was silly for them, with what they claim to believe and with the time they were taking to attack me, to engage in this process before further hurling attacks and accusations my direction.

[_Yoda]

They never responded that they would do so, but continued the attacks. It seems if it was worth their time to attack me, it would have been worth their time to inquire of the Lord re whether I was a doubting High Priest or a troll. If they did pray about it (they may have) and received the answer that I am a troll, then they should be questioning their own abilities to obtain answers to prayers. I was not mocking prayer in the slightest--I meant every word I said and did not think it was silly for them, with what they claim to believe and with the time they were taking to attack me, to engage in this process before further hurling attacks and accusations my direction.

That's really interesting. Did you PM either one of them, by any chance?

I'm just wondering if they would have responded to you in a private conversation.

Can any of the Pro-MAD'ers (Charity, Alter Idem, Why Me, Wade, DCP, et. al.) answer as to why such a sincere request wouldn't be honored?

[_moksha]

Selek: Do you think spoilers such as Severian are here only to share the misery of their own condescension, or because they think they've actually got a chance of influencing someone? I'm betting it's the latter.

That's why I've been so vocal and passionate in my defense of the Church and my advocacy of the Gospel- because there are liars, fools, and frauds who come here to sow doubt and to lead astray those who are unsure.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

QUOTE(Severian @ Oct 22 2007, 11:39 AM)

Wow, so you think some of us have been extra naughty? Holding a differing opinion or feeling the need for a candid answer rather than continually toeing the party line is not really being a spoiler is it? I suspect newcomers may seek these candid answers rather than being subjected to an environment of judging and being judged.

Selek: First and foremost, you are neither candid nor a newcomer. Second, no- it is not necessary to continuously toe the party line and we have room for a variety of opinions, as I stated above.

On the other hand, we have little room and far less need for your habit of being relentlessly negative, snide, condescending, sneering, arrogant, dismissive, irrelevant, snarky, and utterly devoid of any capacity to make a meaningful contribution to a rational conversation.

Your entire presence on this board has been a sanctimonious sneer and criticism. You've contributed nothing to further the conversation, merely snarked at the faithful and patted yourself on the back for your wit. Your potshots and arrogance are counter-productive- whether the goal is strengthening the faithful, comforting the afflicted, or merely intelligent conversation.

QUOTE (Severian)
You are right in I do imagine that we all have the capacity to influence things for the better. Through adding all our thoughts and voices together, we can move onward and upward and achieve a better understanding.

Selek: When you start contributing, let me know. So far I am astoundingly underwhelmed.

QUOTE (Severian)
...Acting out can sometimes be cathartic, however, it is more pleasant for everyone when we are able to be loving

.


Selek: I think you just revealed (how ever unintentionally) the true rationale for your presence here- and for the existence of Shade's board, and RFM, and the Ex-Mo Whining Chorus, and the tin-foil hat brigades.

It's about you feeling better- not about anything meaningful to anyone beyond your own skin.

Thank you for the revelation- it is quite enlightening.

Oh....one more thing. Your histrionics can't disguise the fact that you still haven't answered multiple CFR's or retracted your earlier assertion.

Why not?

[_moksha]

QUOTE(Severian @ Oct 22 2007, 10:39 AM)

Wow, so you think some of us have been extra naughty? Holding a differing opinion or feeling the need for a candid answer rather than continually toeing the party line is not really being a spoiler is it? I suspect newcomers may seek these candid answers rather than being subjected to an environment of judging and being judged.

You are right in I do imagine that we all have the capacity to influence things for the better. Through adding all our thoughts and voices together, we can move onward and upward and achieve a better understanding.

Selek, as for liking you when you are angry, we all have our moments. Acting out can sometimes be cathartic, however, it is more pleasant for everyone when we are able to be loving.

Juliann: Oh give us a break. Who in the world do you think doesn't see through your sneering, condescending sarcasm? This board has ample people who don't toe the party line and yet they can have an intelligent discussion instead of doing a bad imitation of Bill Maher. Has there been a positive comment about Mormons today that you have not zoomed in to sprinkle your juvenile smirking?

[_Yoda]

Juliann: Oh give us a break. Who in the world do you think doesn't see through your sneering, condescending sarcasm? This board has ample people who don't toe the party line and yet they can have an intelligent discussion instead of doing a bad imitation of Bill Maher.

Wow! Juliann watches "Bill Maher"!

I'm impressed!

:)

[_Runtu]

Juliann: Oh give us a break. Who in the world do you think doesn't see through your sneering, condescending sarcasm? This board has ample people who don't toe the party line and yet they can have an intelligent discussion instead of doing a bad imitation of Bill Maher.

Wow! Juliann watches "Bill Maher"!

I'm impressed!

:)

That thread seems to follow Juliann's pattern: start a thread that will offend every critic and exmo, ratchet up the rhetoric, and then when people respond angrily, use that as proof at how evil the opposition is. I refuse to play that game.