Joseph Smith Polygamy - Women as Victims?

[_barrelomonkeys]

Hi Gaz, did that address my concern?

With that view towards women, do you think he would abuse them?

Women he was sealed to will either exalt or condemn his soul depending on whether or not they can attribute the gospel of salvation to him. When my wife is questioned on my judgement day as to what my character is, it will be a very important part of the process. For each woman Joseph was sealed to , this is multiplied.

Well I'm not certain how he treated them is really the point I was trying to make. Certainly a man could be kind and generous to a woman and still be 'using' her in some way. No?

When there is a power differential in play where a woman latches on to a man (without coercion) is she still a victim or being 'used' in anyway? Think outside the Joseph Smith pardigm for a moment and consider polygamy today perhaps? I'm not arguing that she is being 'used' or is a victim here... just trying to sort it out for myself. :)

[_mormonmistress]

Well I agree that there is a clear distinction between having an affair vs. being in a polygamous relationship. But even then were these women victims of the men (after Joseph Smith?!) or the religious culture? Both?

Definitely victims of the religious culture. Victims of Joseph Smith? I believe so, because I think he was a fraud. If he did actually believe what he was doing was right, then no.

What of the women that sleep with rock stars? Being star struck and wanting to have a fling with one. Are they victims too? Used in anyway? There were some LDS women (as far as I know!?) that wanted to be with Joseph Smith because of the 'star struck' dynamic.

I guess it depends what they thought they were getting out of the liason. If it was the kudos that they had slept with so and so and there were no regrets, then I don't see them as victims.

[_MishMagnet]

I feel that actions speak much louder than words, Gaz. I cringed reading that entire quote by Joseph Smith knowing now the other side of the story as told by his wife. Talk is cheap as far as I'm concerned.

mormonmistress, you're coming off rather arrogantly. I suspect this is due to your feeling that you have the upper hand in the situation right now. I don't think you will be feeling the same way after the relationship is said and done. There are no happy stories I know of where affairs are concerned. I don't know your guy of course but, just as with Joseph Smith, a man that lies to his wife is capable of lying about anything. If you are just in this for fun you could have picked someone who doesn't treat his children like colateral damage. (meaning he's toying with ruining his childrens lives in all of this.)

[_mormonmistress]

Hi Mishmagnet

Not sure what exactly I am being arrogant about? The fact I am not being used and my lover's wife is? I can't see the arrogance in that. It's just the truth. I was about to address the rest of your post but I really don't see the point. This thread is not about me and I've already had my say on my situation over and over. I am happy in my own skin and don't need any more lectures about why either I or my lover are scum :) With all due respect, it really has got boring.

[_MishMagnet]

I'm new to this board and this is the first thing I have ever said on your situation. Perhaps it's the fact that you come off as dismissing the women Joseph Smith bedded as having a good time, no problem. We're talking about 14 year olds, 16 year olds, 18 year olds, women who were married to loving husbands, girls who probably had no idea what sex was as it was happening to them.

I know nothing about your situation except what you've put on this particular post. I'm only going on your screen name being "mormonmistress" (which does come off as if you are proud of it) and your dismissing Joseph Smith period. Perhaps I should re-read what you've said to make sure I'm getting it correctly. I'm a married woman with a young family so of course I'm going to have a different take on your 'situation.' I've also had a sibling cheat on his wife and eventualy leave her and I'm still hurting over that, seeing the pain it caused his wife - who I care about. No amount of 'we weren't having sex' makes it better for me.

[_Yoda]

I've read Rough Stone Rolling and have followed this board as well as MAD for about the last year. During that time I always considered the wives as victims of Joseph Smith.

I wonder if it's really an accurate way to think of these women that were the subsequent wives of Joseph Smith. Surely there were a number that were coerced and did not desire to be a polygamous wife. However is it always accurate to think of these women in the sense that they were victims?

Is it a possibility (oh I'm so scared to type this!) that some were star struck and desired to be a lover/wife to Joseph Smith?

Is it just a knee jerk reaction that I have to assume all of the wives were victims? I'm just thinking about how women sometimes desire to latch onto men that they admire, respect, etc... and find validation there and do so through sexualizing themselves.



*edited cause I typed Rough Rolling Stone cause I was thinking about rock stars!! oops!*

You shouldn't be scared to type the "star-struck" comment as a possibility at all.

I think it is a very valid point. Women desire power the same way men do. Within the Mormon culture/community during this time, there could be no greater power obtained by a woman than to be the wife of a prophet.

Edited to add---I think that this notion may have further added to the victimization of the younger wives (the 14 and 16 year olds). And that victimization, in my opinion, was placed on these girls not only by Joseph, but by the parents of these girls, who felt that they would hold an extension of that power through that particular legacy.

[_mormonmistress]

I'm new to this board and this is the first thing I have ever said on your situation. Perhaps it's the fact that you come off as dismissing the women Joseph Smith bedded as having a good time, no problem. We're talking about 14 year olds, 16 year olds, 18 year olds, women who were married to loving husbands, girls who probably had no idea what sex was as it was happening to them.

I know nothing about your situation except what you've put on this particular post. I'm only going on your screen name being "mormonmistress" (which does come off as if you are proud of it) and your dismissing Joseph Smith period. Perhaps I should re-read what you've said to make sure I'm getting it correctly. I'm a married woman with a young family so of course I'm going to have a different take on your 'situation.' I've also had a sibling cheat on his wife and eventualy leave her and I'm still hurting over that, seeing the pain it caused his wife - who I care about. No amount of 'we weren't having sex' makes it better for me.

I dismissed the women Joseph Smith bedded as having a good time? I'm not sure you read my posts correctly. What I said was.

In the case of Joseph Smith's women, I absolutely think they were victims and they were coerced.

You'll find a thread about my affair on the Telestial Forum. If you wish for me to answer any of your questions about it, please ask them there.

[_Gaia]

I think it was a mixed bag. Some of the women were victimized by Joseph Smith and other leaders - including fathers - who were spiritually coercive and abusive. Others were eager to associate with Joseph Smith and I imagine would have been happy to be a mistress, as well. Among those I consider "star struck, happy to be mistress" types are Eliza Snow and Lucinda Morgan.

GAIA:

Hello Everyone --

I think this "mixed bag" is about the most reasonable, intelligent and accurate way to understand it.

Polygyny -- multiple wives -- was for some, a horrendous, life-long curse; but it was also (for some indiviudalis and in some ways, for women in general ALSO a blessing: LDS women were among the very first to be able to go East and obtain professional training and experience, because they could leave the home and family in the care of "Sister-wives", and were in fact encouraged to do so, by Brigham Young. So it was LDS women who were among the very first doctors, lawyers, law-makers, etc.

And it cannot be denied that there were some sister-wives who did either get along well, or who learned to, and eventually found some real comfort in the shared experiences.

I think it's unfortunate that some people seem to need to either idealize or demonize the experience (and Mormons for it!) -- Nothing and nobody is ever all good, or all bad; human beings being what they are, most things they do have a wide range of consequences and effects.

~Gaia

[_Yoda]

I think it's unfortunate that some people seem to need to either idealize or demonize the experience (and Mormons for it!) -- Nothing and nobody is ever all good, or all bad; human beings being what they are, most things they do have a wide range of consequences and effects.

~Gaia

I agree.

What is difficult about this type of relationship for me to understand is the true forming of a intimate bond with your spouse. And I'm not simply talking about sex.

I'm talking about the intimacy that comes with raising children, financial decisions, being a confidant, etc.

[_Sethbag]

Gaia, that only applies to polygamy out in Utah. How does any of what you said apply to the secretive practice of polygamy by Joseph Smith? How were the Patridge sisters any better off with both of them secretely married to Joseph Smith, when at first the sisters didn't even know that the other was already married to him? How was Fanny Alger helped by her supposed (and very poorly documented) "plural marriage" to Joseph Smith?

What benefits were to have accrued to Sarah Pratt if she had gone along with Joseph Smith's propositions to her while her husband was away? Would she have been able to go to college and become a doctor?

Did Helen Mar Kimball finally give in to the pressure of her father and Joseph Smith and become Joseph's umpteenth secret plural wife, and then go off to law school?

What benefits Mormon women got from polygamy as practiced in Utah were the result of their efforts to take a lemon they'd been given and make lemonade.

They played in some cases a pretty good game with the hands they were dealt. But the origin of the whole practice in the church with Joseph Smith was very much a dubious and questionable affair, and I use that term with all of its loaded double meaning intact.