Joseph Smith Polygamy - Women as Victims?

[_MishMagnet]

Sorry, I have not been able to quote correctly yet.

In response to Mormonmistress I was refering to your quotes on why would the women become involved in an affair unless they were getting sexual gratification out of it. Upon a second reading I see you were perhaps speaking of women in general in that part and then later about the specific women involved with Joseph Smith. On the same note my feeling of you being arrogant came from you commenting that you weren't being used and your lover's wife was. Upon a second reading it did not strike me the same way as I saw your clarification that this was because you had the truth of the situation and she did not.

[_Sethbag]

Again, what Utah Women were able to do with polygamy is beside the point. They had the system thrust upon them, and were well-meaning women, who did the best they could with the hand they were dealt.

The problem is that the secret practice of polygamy as practiced by Joseph Smith was abhorrent, manipulative, devious, dishonest, cruel, selfish, and shameful. Pointing out what some Utah women were able to do with it later on does not negate any of these points. I have yet to see anything that the apologists throw out there in defense of polygamy as practiced in Utah that still applies when viewed in the context of Joseph Smith's several dozen secret plural wives.

[_Trinity]

I suppose that if they were of the personality that liked to be secretive, sneaky, covert, cloak and dagger type of mentality that some women get off on.....I suppose that would be a benefit to what they were doing. You know, like the UMW covert operation on the MAD board.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Sorry, I have not been able to quote correctly yet.

Hi MishMagnet. :)

To quote someone click on the quote box on the upper right hand corner of the poster's post. That will open a reply box where their quote is already ready to go for you.

Or you can copy and paste the words you would like to reply to and then highlight those words. After you've highlighted the words you can click on the 'quote' box up at the top of your reply screen. Or you can type in [quote] and then type that again at the end with a / before typing quote.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Sorry, I have not been able to quote correctly yet.

Hi MishMagnet. :)

To quote someone click on the quote box on the upper right hand corner of the poster's post. That will open a reply box where their quote is already ready to go for you.

Or you can copy and paste the words you would like to reply to and then highlight those words. After you've highlighted the words you can click on the 'quote' box up at the top of your reply screen. Or you can type in

and then type that again at the end with a / before typing quote.

Yes, Mish, it can be tricky learning to use the quote feature correctly on this board. It took me a long time to figure it out, but I'm not very computer savvy, so it shouldn't be as difficult for you!

Good luck!

KA

PS - I think all the "quotes" typed in to Book of Mormon's post made my simple quote of her all messed up! This is too ironic! LOL I just hit the quote box in the corner. Oh, well. :)

[_truth dancer]

Hi Liz...

What is difficult about this type of relationship for me to understand is the true forming of a intimate bond with your spouse. And I'm not simply talking about sex.

I'm talking about the intimacy that comes with raising children, financial decisions, being a confidant, etc.

These relationships were/are not about intimacy.

The harem lifestyle is not a marriage. It is completely different arrangement which is why I think the very word marriage is completely inappropriate.

It is about men as sperm donors, and groups of women living a communal lifestyle.

~dancer~

[_Gaia]

Gaia, that only applies to polygamy out in Utah.


GAIA:

Hi SEthbag --
I must respectfully disagee, to some extent. Some polygamous wives even in the earlier days, had greater freedom and opportunities to develop both their inidividual talents, and their inter-(sisterhood) relationships with each other, at least partly because of polygamy.

Have you ever read any of their journals, diaries, or letters to each other? I have.
Some of them were able to develop personal gifts (for example, midwifery or spiritual gifts); and some were able to develop exceptionally close, intimate ties with each other.

They played in some cases a pretty good game with the hands they were dealt. But the origin of the whole practice in the church with Joseph Smith was very much a dubious and questionable affair, and I use that term with all of its loaded double meaning intact.

GAIA:

JOseph had his faults, that's quite true. But i don't think it's wise or fair to completely demonize him, anymore than it's wise or fair, to completely idealize him. He was a very complicated, human, paradoxical man, with remarkable gifts and remarkable weaknesses.


Blessings --
~Gaia

[_Gaia]

These relationships were/are not about intimacy.
The harem lifestyle is not a marriage.

GAIA:

With all due respect, that really sounds more like a generalized (and stereotyped) universal condemnation, than an educated opinion. May i respectfully ask, how much do you know or have you investigated, the polyamory lifestyle?

There are many people who are living the Polyamorous lifestyle today, and who believe that it not only encourages more intimacy, but a higher level of human caring for ALL its members.

I would encourage anyone who has any curiosity about polygamy, to educate themselves about Polyamory --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

www.polyamory.org

www.polyfamilies.com

[_Sethbag]

How is all this sister-wifely goodness supposed to have been happening when the several dozen sister-wives were for the most part kept a secret even from each other? I'm not buying it. I'd like examples of how great it could be being a secret plural wife of Joseph Smith, during Joseph Smith's life.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaia,

Polygyny -- multiple wives -- was for some, a horrendous, life-long curse; but it was also (for some indiviudalis and in some ways, for women in general ALSO a blessing:

Oooohhh... did some manage? Yes. Did some cope better than others? Yes. Did some enjoy this form of alternative partnering? Yes. Was it a "blessings"? I think this is dangerously close to the statements of those who suggest rape, child abuse, cruelty is a "blessing" because some people learned from the horror, or improved their lives because of a tragedy.

LDS women were among the very first to be able to go East and obtain professional training and experience, because they could leave the home and family in the care of "Sister-wives",

This is another excuse that, with all due respect REALLY rubs me the wrong way. As if women wouldn't help each other unless they were sharing a husband, or care for one another unless they were sleeping with the same man.

Those women who left their children to pursue their personal goals seem to be held as fabulous women... today women who deserted their children would be considered selfish, abusive, and clearly led by Satan, by leaders and believing members.

And those women who remained at home caring for ten or twenty children were child care providers. Single women who work often pay other women to help with their children. Again, women don't need to be attached to the same man to help each other.

So it was LDS women who were among the very first doctors, lawyers, law-makers, etc.

What percentage of LDS women involved in the harem lifestyle became doctors, lawyers, and law-makers?

I've heard this presented as evidence that polygamy was a great thing for women but I've only heard of a virtual handful of women who seem to be in this catagory... I think maybe four or five women at most. I think the vast majority suffered, struggled, and considered their lifestyle an "Abrahamic" sacrifice.

These women had to find ways to support their families since the men who claimed to be their husbands wouldn't provide for them.

While the idea that these women had to provide for themselves seems to be honored LDS leaders clearly condemn men who don't provide for their children, and condemn women who leave their children to work outside the home.

And it cannot be denied that there were some sister-wives who did either get along well, or who learned to, and eventually found some real comfort in the shared experiences.

It is very common for those who share a tragedy, difficult circumstances, and/or horrific experiences to bond to one another. The fact that some women managed, in my opinion is not a testament to the practice or lifestyle so much as it is the ability of the human to cope with life.

I think it's unfortunate that some people seem to need to either idealize or demonize the experience (and Mormons for it!) -- Nothing and nobody is ever all good, or all bad; human beings being what they are, most things they do have a wide range of consequences and effects.

I agree... I have often stated that there are women, (and I know a few), who truly have no interest in a marriage, who think the idea of a harem lifestyle is fine. Absolutely. Clearly there are those women who figured out a way to make it work, or survive or manage or cope. And there were most likely those women who enjoyed the lifestyle. We just have to look to the FLDS to support this assertion. It is amazing how many people enjoy all sorts of alternative lifestyles.

What is difficult for me is to deny the heartache, the pain and suffering, the abuse, the cruelty that did occur to women, girls and children and young men, by suggesting it wasn't all that bad for some so it wasn't a big deal.

I'm NOT suggesting you are doing this but I hear it often enough that I feel sick inside whenever this comes up.


~dancer~