Joseph Smith Polygamy - Women as Victims?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaia... :-)

With all due respect, that really sounds more like a generalized (and stereotyped) universal condemnation, than an educated opinion. May I respectfully ask, how much do you know or have you investigated, the polyamory lifestyle?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not discussing the polyamory lifestyle. I have not "investigated" the lifestyle but know several people involved in it and have read enough to understand the viewpoint of those involved.

I have repeatedly stated that there are those who enjoy alternative lifestyles of all sorts... no condemnation whatsoever.

I'm discussing the practice of polygyny as practiced during the early days of the church, and in the FLDS church today.

JOseph had his faults, that's quite true. But I don't think it's wise or fair to completely demonize him, anymore than it's wise or fair, to completely idealize him. He was a very complicated, human, paradoxical man, with remarkable gifts and remarkable weaknesses.

I would say it is appropriate to look at Joseph Smith as any other man who engaged in similar behavior.

Warmest wishes,

:-)

~dancer~

[_Gaia]

Again, women don't need to be attached to the same man to help each other.

GAIA:

Of course not; women pretty much always reach out to help each other, it seems to be in our nature to do so.

However, in that era and culture, and with the realities of the challenges they had to deal with, i think that's pretty much the way (and only way) it worked or could have worked, at the time.

Other (non-sister-wives) were quite busily occupied caring for their own (many!) children, home and other chores -- esp those who were farmers or ranchers. It was just easier and the circumstnaces lent themselves to Sister-wives more easily taking over for one who wished to pursue other goals.

What percentage of LDS women involved in the harem lifestyle became doctors, lawyers, and law-makers?

I've heard this presented as evidence that polygamy was a great thing for women but I've only heard of a virtual handful of women who seem to be in this catagory... I think maybe four or five women at most. I think the vast majority suffered, struggled, and considered their lifestyle an "Abrahamic" sacrifice.

GAIA:

I'd probably agree with that last sentence; i don't have the actual "percentage" available and it would take some research to find; however, there were many more than just the "handful" you're suggesting.

To get a more balanced perspective, I would strongly recomend an interested person read some issues of the Exponent -- the LDS women's publication during that era. It's a wonderful resource that gives the women's own UNvarnished statements and atttitudes -- very revealing! (And at least some of it is available online!)

It is very common for those who share a tragedy, difficult circumstances, and/or horrific experiences to bond to one another. The fact that some women managed, in my opinion is not a testament to the practice or lifestyle so much as it is the ability of the human to cope with life.

GAIA:

I think it's a function of both, with more emphasis on the character of those involved.

One definition of "hero" is something like:
- An ordinary person who under extraordinary circumstances, behaves in an extraordianry manner -- and that certainly fits a lot of the "heroines" of the Church.

What is difficult for me is to deny the heartache, the pain and suffering, the abuse, the cruelty that did occur to women, girls and children and young men, by suggesting it wasn't all that bad for some so it wasn't a big deal.

GAIA:

I would certainly agree with that!


I hope i in no way gave the impresion that i minimize the suffering endured by many women of theChurch during that era; it must have been a terribly difficult time, made even worse by the lack of understanding onthe part of their (male) leaders.

And Unfortunately, things have not changed enough since then.....

(Gaia ducks and grins)

[_Yoda]

(Gaia ducks and grins)

No need to duck for that comment here!

;)

[_Blixa]

Anybody know who the guy is in Gaz's post? He's hot.

[_Sethbag]

Gaia, with all due respect, the topic of the thread was Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy, and if the plural "wives" of Joseph Smith were victims. The topic was not about Utah polygamy.

If you have evidence that the secret plural "wives" of Joseph Smith actually benefited from sister-wifely intimacy, increased opportunities to pursue a medical career, or what have you, during Joseph Smith's life, as a consequence of their having been married to Joseph Smith in a secret ceremony, secret from not only the public, and not only to Emma, but even, for the most part, from each other, then let's have it.

[_Gaia]

Hi Seth --

I guess i need to apologize, i addressed the topic from a much broader perspective than the thread's focus.

-- Sorry. I'll be happy to delete my messages if any of you think it appropriate.

[_moksha]

Hi Seth --

I guess I need to apologize, I addressed the topic from a much broader perspective than the thread's focus.

-- Sorry. I'll be happy to delete my messages if any of you think it appropriate.

Gaia, not to worry, this is a fairly non-apologetic place.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaia,

Of course not; women pretty much always reach out to help each other, it seems to be in our nature to do so.

However, in that era and culture, and with the realities of the challenges they had to deal with, I think that's pretty much the way (and only way) it worked or could have worked, at the time.

Other (non-sister-wives) were quite busily occupied caring for their own (many!) children, home and other chores -- esp those who were farmers or ranchers. It was just easier and the circumstnaces lent themselves to Sister-wives more easily taking over for one who wished to pursue other goals.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. (smile) I have read way too many stories (some in my own history), of women who helped each other in difficult times to think these early women would not have helped each other out unless they were sharing a man. I compare the situation to others where many single mothers had no support or husband in the picture, perhaps in war times, and they certainly helped and cared for each other in fabulous ways.

One definition of "hero" is something like:
- An ordinary person who under extraordinary circumstances, behaves in an extraordianry manner -- and that certainly fits a lot of the "heroines" of the Church.

I've shared this before but... I think both the women who participated in the polygamous lifestyle, and the women who didn't were heroines! The women who did, (with the exception of those who truly enjoy the alternative lifestyle), considered it a trial of faith, an Abrahamic sacrifice, a test of obedience, and one of the most difficult horrible challenges of their lives. And, those women who refused did so knowing they would be ridiculed, judged, considered less valiant, and perhaps lose their place in the eternities.

For those who did not desire the alternative form of partnering, it was a horrible choice to have to make.

With all due respect, I believe I have a rather "balanced" view of the lifestyle. :-) I have read dozens of stories, journals, books, (mostly faith promoting apologetics), and have spent considerable time with two FLDS women as they shared their lives with me. I won't pretend to have read everything ever written but I feel I have a pretty good sense of how women were treated.

I am clear that there were women who enjoyed the lifestyle. No question. There are also women like my husband's relative who was a first wife who died of a "broken heart," because of it, whose journal describes a life of hell. And there is everything in between.

I hold to the belief that whatever form of lifestyle or partnering alternative in which consenting, unmanipulated, uncoerced ADULTS want to engage, is fine so long as children are not harmed.

Blessings,

~dancer~

[_Sethbag]

Hi Seth --

I guess I need to apologize, I addressed the topic from a much broader perspective than the thread's focus.

-- Sorry. I'll be happy to delete my messages if any of you think it appropriate.

That won't be necessary at all, and of course your answers are somewhat typical of an apologetic defense of Mormon polygamy in general. The problem is, as I see it, that Joseph Smith's practice of it was abominable, and that it is the practice of it by Joseph Smith which reveals clearly that it was opportunistic, selfish, and manipulative, and that it really doesn't matter at all whether or not Mormon women twenty years later were able to take the lemon and make lemonade out of it.

It's all about the credibility of Joseph Smith as God's Prophet on Earth. If Joseph Smith was not credible in this role, then the whole edifice of the Mormon church is not credible. If Joseph Smith were not a true Prophet of a God who actually exists, then Brigham Young certainly wasn't, Lorenzo Snow wasn't, Wilford Woodruff wasn't, down to Gordon B. Hinckley, who certainly isn't.

I think Joseph Smith's actions with respect to his own despicable practice of secret, selfish and manipulative polygamy and polyandry clearly contradict the notion of him as a true Prophet.

[_truth dancer]

The problem is, as I see it, that Joseph Smith's practice of it was abominable, and that it is the practice of it by Joseph Smith which reveals clearly that it was opportunistic, selfish, and manipulative, and that it really doesn't matter at all whether or not Mormon women twenty years later were able to take the lemon and make lemonade out of it.

The fact that a few women may have enjoyed sharing a man, found some women friends, got an education, managed, or survived says NOTHING about whether this practice or insitution was of divine origin.

I would venture to guess that in virtually every horrible situation that has existed on the Earth, someone somewhere could make the case that some good came out of it. This doesn't mean God created the horrible event, or that the event was not horrible.

It means that human beings have amazing survival skills and coping mechanisms, that humans can learn and grow and adapt. It is reflective of the human spirit to live against all odds.

As you say, make lemonade out of lemons! ;-)

~dancer~