Origins of the Book of Mormon

[_Doctor Steuss]

[...]
the douche formerly known as Charity.

Mercury,

I know that Charity is a big girl and can handle herself, and despite the fact that I like her, the following isn’t because of the affinity I have.

I really cringe when you use this type of language towards a lady. I’m sure there are other adjectives you could use (if you wouldn’t mind). Perhaps I’m a wee bit old-fashioned, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

[_karl61]

how about he got a copy of "view of the hebrews" and studied it out in his mind. and then began dictating the Book of Mormon. So much of Joseph's unconscious mind, things he read, things saw, things he heard, things he thought about, were in the book. We won't even address taking a break and copying Isaiah and the parts of the New Testament. Well, I guess we could.

After reading View of the Hebrews, I didn't see how it could have had any substantial influence.

Indians came from Israel
full battle dress
great white god visits
both books reportedly copy Isaiah

I just received studies of the Book of Mormon yesterday in the mail so I need to read up but in American Apocrypha - there is an essay on B.H. Roberts and the list of similarites that he made just goes on and on...it might have been the final straw for him.

[_Mercury]

[...]
the douche formerly known as Charity.

Mercury,

I know that Charity is a big girl and can handle herself, and despite the fact that I like her, the following isn’t because of the affinity I have.

I really cringe when you use this type of language towards a lady. I’m sure there are other adjectives you could use (if you wouldn’t mind). Perhaps I’m a wee bit old-fashioned, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

Charitys female? Why is she not in the kitchen? Does she deny the counsel of the prophets?

[_Doctor Steuss]

how about he got a copy of "view of the hebrews" and studied it out in his mind. and then began dictating the Book of Mormon. So much of Joseph's unconscious mind, things he read, things saw, things he heard, things he thought about, were in the book. We won't even address taking a break and copying Isaiah and the parts of the New Testament. Well, I guess we could.

After reading View of the Hebrews, I didn't see how it could have had any substantial influence.

Indians came from Israel
full battle dress
great white god visits
both books reportedly copy Isaiah

I just received studies of the Book of Mormon yesterday in the mail so I need to read up but in American Apocrypha - there is an essay on B.H. Roberts and the list of similarites that he made just goes on and on...it might have been the final straw for him.

From memory (it was close to a year ago when I read it), the overall differences outweighed the loose correlations. There was also much more in there (the various customs of the Native Americans and the parallels to Israelite customs, the language parallels, etc.) that would seemingly be advantageous to have included in the Book of Mormon. Also, VoH focused heavily on the lost tribes, whereas Book of Mormon doesn’t. I don’t remember anything in VoH of a “white god” visiting(?) It also dwells rather heavily on the destruction of the temple, which (given the prevalence in VoH) would have made its way into the Book of Mormon if it was influential in the creation of the Book of Mormon narrative.

As for the Isaiah passages, I seem to remember VoH quoting different aspects of Isaiah than the Book of Mormon.

Let me know what BH Roberts correlations are (if you get a chance) as I haven't read his little study. In my brief readings of his life though, it seemed that the anachronisms troubled him much more than any potential Book of Mormon influencing source.

[_Yoda]

[...]
the douche formerly known as Charity.

Mercury,

I know that Charity is a big girl and can handle herself, and despite the fact that I like her, the following isn’t because of the affinity I have.

I really cringe when you use this type of language towards a lady. I’m sure there are other adjectives you could use (if you wouldn’t mind). Perhaps I’m a wee bit old-fashioned, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

Agreed. Nice touch of chivalry, Steuss. ;)

Merc...speaking as a Mod now....please...you have been warned in a friendly manner....please keep language to the appropriate forum. And, even though the word, "douche", is allowed here...as a friend, and a woman, I would kindly request that you refrain from it. Thanks, sweetie. Liz

[_Pokatator]

Setbag, I would be one of the last people on earth to say that the Book of Mormon can be PROVEN to be true by any means other than a spiritual witness.

But when you say there is absolutely no evidence for the Book of Mormon, you have gone over the top and spun out of control. Can't you be honest and admit that there are a few compelling evidences? At least that?

Hey can I go over the top and spin out of control, too?

I find nothing compelling in the form of any evidences. The spiritual witness business is bunk too. Moroni's promise doesn't work either.

By the way, welcome to the board, Charity.

Thanks for the welcome, Pokator. You can spin all you want. You do it a lot! :)

(Does this board have smilies availalbe? I haven't found them.)

EVen if you don't find the evidence compelling, you do see it. Correct?

Charity, I don't think I spin, I think I am in control. I tried to make Mormonism work for me for 36 years. No one wanted it to work more than I. It just doesn't work.

I don't see anything of evidence for the church. I see a few coincidences but nothing that is evidence or even close.

Earlier in my life I think I was a lot like you, I had my Sunbeam Mormon Coloring Book and I could color every problem into the church's favor. But something happened and somehow I learned too much, studied to much, even prayed too much to be able to stay a Mormon. I am so much happier outside of the church.

I still welcome you here, your Mormon PollyAnna comments bring back a lot of memories for me. I need to be reminded of where I have come from occasionally.

PS I also don't agree with the name calling, let the conversations stand on its own.

[_Doctor Steuss]

Thestyleguy,

As an interesting (or at least I think it was) side note. I bought my copy of VoH at Deseret Book (when I got it, there were about 5 copies on the shelf).

[_Phaedrus Ut]

Second is he really only 3rd grade educated. Take a look at Joseph's writings before the translation of the Book of Mormon and you'll see a keen and articulate mind. Heck look at his "Revelations" written at the same time D&C 3& D&C 10. Does the language and writing style seem familiar?
Phaedrus

His wife said he couldn't compose a coherent sentence at the time the Book of Mormon was translated. But then you wouldn't want an eyewitness to get in the way of your argument.

Why do you need an eye witness when you have the actual writing? There are enough of Joseph's personal writings from the time the Book of Mormon was translated it's easy to verify if he can compose a coherent sentence or not. Here is an example of a letter written by Joseph to Oliver. It's from the Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, Edited by Dean C. Jessee. You can verify this here at Deseret Book.com

Harmony -Oct. 22d 1829

Respected Sir

I would in form you that I arrived at home on sunday morning the 4th after having a prosperous Journey, and found all well the people are all friendly to <us> except a few who are in opposition to evry thing unless it is some thing that is exactly like themselves and two of our most formadable persacutors are now under censure and are cited to a tryal in the church for crimes which if true are worse than all the Gold Book business. we do not rejoice in the affliction of our enimies but we shall be glad to have truth prevail there begins to be a great call for our books in this country the minds of the people are very much excited when they find that there is a copy right obtained and that there is really [a] book, about to be printed I have bought a horse of Mr. [Josiah] Stowell and want some one to come after it as soon as convenient Mr. Stowell has a prospect of getting five or six hundred dollars he does not know certain that he can get it but he is a going to try and if he can get the money he wants to pay it in immediately for books we want to hear from you and know how you prosper in the good work, give our best respects to Father & Mother and all our brothers and Sisters, to Mr. [Martin] Harris and all the company concerned tell them that our prayers are put up daily for them that they may be prospered in evry, good word and work and that they may be preserved from sin here and and from the consequence of sin hereafter and now dear brother be faithful in the discharge of evry duty looking for the reward of the righteous and now may God of his infinite mercy keep and preserve us spotless untill his coming and receive us all to rest with him in eternal repose through the attonement of Christ our Lord Amen

Joseph Smith Jr

Oliver H. Cowdery

I see lots and lots of coherent sentences along with strong composition ,a knowledgeable voice, and a keen delivery of message and intent. This seems especially clear from the religious ideas invoked in the bold section above.


Phaedrus

[_Sethbag]

Sethbag, I would be one of the last people on earth to say that the Book of Mormon can be PROVEN to be true by any means other than a spiritual witness.

But when you say there is absolutely no evidence for the Book of Mormon, you have gone over the top and spun out of control. Can't you be honest and admit that there are a few compelling evidences? At least that?

Beastie already commented on Nahom and chiasmus, which as she mentioned, are things that might tie the Book of Mormon to the Old World. What can you offer up as evidence in the New World that the the Book of Mormon story actually belongs?

Where in the continuously-developing narrative of the ancient Americas does the Book of Mormon story belong? What evidence is there in the New World that there were ever Nephites, Lamanites, Mulekites, Jaredites, etc.? Where is the evidence for Christianity in the Americas between 600 BC and 0 AD? Where's the evidence for Christianity in the New World from 0 AD to 400 AD? Where's the evidence for Zarahemla?

Seriously, what actual evidence is there that the Book of Mormon story belongs anywhere in the story of the ancient Americas?

[_Sethbag]

Let me know what BH Roberts correlations are (if you get a chance) as I haven't read his little study. In my brief readings of his life though, it seemed that the anachronisms troubled him much more than any potential Book of Mormon influencing source.

I don't have my copy of the BH Roberts book right now, because I lent it to a relative and haven't gotten it back yet. I didn't read the whole book word for word. I skimmed through it looking for the overall gist of his work. The overall gist of it was that Joseph Smith could probably have written the Book of Mormon himself.